[crenfro]

Ultrasone Pro 750 have so many things going for them: clarity, detail, sound quality. However, I find what many of the reviewers even the positive ones on the site have found. Those who rate them 5 stars and those who rate them 1 star all are saying the same thing. To quote a few:
 

 Ouch!!! that treble is so vicious.  The treble is so vicious that at loud volumes I can only describe it as painful. Once your turn up the volume you are immediately rewarded with torture, ear piercing treble/top-end, so far forward it takes away the enjoyment of the music, it’s really fatiguing and you find yourself lowering the volume

 Metallic Highs, Very sharp Highs, Can be fatiguing

 highs can be too aggressive sometimes

 
I find the same thing! I want to enjoy the fantastic detail these things offer, but with something like Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" - I can completely agree that "piercing" is an accurate way to describe what's happening.
 
With music like this, or anything with sharp sounds really I end up putting down the Ultrasones and just listening through my JBL LSR-305 - which are a great set of budget flat response studio monitors, but lack the detail, depth, or fun of the Ultrasones. 
 
Is there anything I can do? I listen to music via. Google Play and a scarlett focusrite 2i4 so I don't have EQ. Is there a program I can download to do EQ or will that even help? If I do EQ do I just lower the gain on the high frequency noises? 
 
These have gotten ample burn-in by the way, I've owned them for 9 years

 

[obobskivich]

Ultrasone conducted a study on their S-LOGIC technology (it was presented at an AES conference, but I honestly don't remember which one - I know their founder was one of the principle authors) and they found that a certain portion of the population will respond this way to S-LOGIC (it relates to ear shape, from what I remember) - I think its something like 10-20% by their estimates. There's a good chance you're in this category, if you hear them as piercing/shrill/clashy. Most reviews and other mainstream publications have jumped on the bandwagon of slamming Ultrasone after the InnerFidelity review of the Edition 10 and the rising popularity of "silly audiophiles" kind of articles on various tech sites.

That having been said, they're fairly detailed/forward in their presentation, and that includes on the top-end. Maybe you just don't like bright headphones/presentation in general, but my guess is that its more likely that S-LOGIC just isn't for you.


Dropping the top-end via EQ may help, but again if the issue is your ear shape + S-LOGIC not jiving, it very likely won't be a complete fix, and you may end up giving up some top-end detail or extension.

Finally, it may be that you're listening to fairly low quality material (most streaming/satellite services are barely a step-up from heavily compressed mp3s or AM audio), and you're hearing that. If you have the Ultrasone demo CD still, try that out - if its still forward and aggressive, the issue isn't with the source material,.

 

[crenfro]

I tried the Demo again last night and I thought "wow this stuff is perfectly mixed to the tonal balance of these headphones" but unfortunately I'd like to listen to more than just the Demo CD
 
I found an extension to Chrome and was able to EQ out some of the shrill highs. I'm also listening to a lot of 70's guitar-based prog rock lately as part of a goal to listen to 100 albums from every decade (done w/ 50's and 60's) and it seems like this was back in the day where they didn't mix the synthesizers and guitars really well at the upper ends and in general there are a lot of shrill-sounding noises.
 
I don't find the issue as much in other genres. I'm considering some Sennheisers (600/650/700) and some HifiMan headphones (HE400I/HE400s) as well as Philips X2 as some that I might get to use for this type of music.

 

[obobskivich]

I tried the Demo again last night and I thought "wow this stuff is perfectly mixed to the tonal balance of these headphones" but unfortunately I'd like to listen to more than just the Demo CD

I found an extension to Chrome and was able to EQ out some of the shrill highs. I'm also listening to a lot of 70's guitar-based prog rock lately as part of a goal to listen to 100 albums from every decade (done w/ 50's and 60's) and it seems like this was back in the day where they didn't mix the synthesizers and guitars really well at the upper ends and in general there are a lot of shrill-sounding noises.

I don't find the issue as much in other genres. I'm considering some Sennheisers (600/650/700) and some HifiMan headphones (HE400I/HE400s) as well as Philips X2 as some that I might get to use for this type of music.

Ultrasones absolutely will bring out the clash-trash present in low quality music (e.g. streaming of brightly/aggressively mixed content), so that's something to consider. If they sound balanced and clean with the demo CD (having listened to a few of those CDs over the years on Ultrasone and non-Ultrasone headphones, I don't get the impression they're exceptionally tailored to *just* Ultrasone headphones, but they *ARE* tailored to headphone listening in general), its probably just your source material at fault. I haven't heard the HD 700 (and they're quite different from the 600/650), but the 600/650 are (comparatively) more laid back, warmer, smoother, etc than any Ultrasone I've heard (which does not include the 750 itself) - might be somewhat more forgiving, but they're still fairly detailed and will bring bad recordings, compression, etc to the forefront. If you need something that's really forgiving for low-fi sources, you might look at the Bose Around Ears - they're even more laid back, warmer, and smoother than the Sennheisers (to the point of giving up some detail), and they do marvelously with tracks that come across as shrill or clashy on many other headphones. IMO.

 

[crenfro]

Bose are far too "colored" to mix or do any studio work with. Maybe they've come out with something better since then. I defeintely need to stick to something that I can use to pick out details when recording. Currently I use JBL LSR-305's for most of the mixing, but the Ultrasones get a touch more detail. I feel like the JBL's are a bit more flat response. I haven't looked at the frequency response curves or anything (had enough of that in DSP class) so it's just going based on feel but I think the JBL's excel for that, but the Ultrasones are far better at detail and instrument separation and finding minute little elements of tracks that can be modified to set better in the mix.
 
From what I hear Bose are about the opposite of what you want in the studio to create a balanced mix. I hear the sennheisers do well as a mixing / pro audio hybrid. The Ultrasones are good but sometimes I'll have some synth that I think "wow - really annoying" on Ultrasones that didn't seem as annoying when on the JBL. But probably the best that I get it sounding good on as many platforms as possible.

 

[obobskivich]

Bose are far too "colored" to mix or do any studio work with.

"Mixing" or "studio work" was never mentioned in the preceding posts. Just listening to music via streaming services. I would contend that Ultrasone is also far too colored/atypical to use as any sort of reference, because nothing but another S-LOGIC equipped Ultrasone is going to behave that way.

Maybe they've come out with something better since then. I defeintely need to stick to something that I can use to pick out details when recording. Currently I use JBL LSR-305's for most of the mixing, but the Ultrasones get a touch more detail. I feel like the JBL's are a bit more flat response. I haven't looked at the frequency response curves or anything (had enough of that in DSP class) so it's just going based on feel but I think the JBL's excel for that, but the Ultrasones are far better at detail and instrument separation and finding minute little elements of tracks that can be modified to set better in the mix.

Generally you should be using speakers for this, but if you need headphones for pro use, I'd get headphones designed for that. Also bear in mind that "flat" is not an absolute term, especially in the world of headphones.

From what I hear Bose are about the opposite of what you want in the studio to create a balanced mix. I hear the sennheisers do well as a mixing / pro audio hybrid. The Ultrasones are good but sometimes I'll have some synth that I think "wow - really annoying" on Ultrasones that didn't seem as annoying when on the JBL. But probably the best that I get it sounding good on as many platforms as possible.

Honestly I feel like your response here has gone complete 180* from the original request - headphones that behave better with low quality streaming services, to something for production use. Heavily EQing your monitors (whatever they may be) is not always the best idea, because it can color your mix pretty heavily; ditto for using colored cans like Ultrasone (or Bose). The HD 600 mightn't be a bad idea here, but again remember that headphones are (inherently) a very different presentation from speakers.

 

[crenfro]

  headphones that behave better with low quality streaming services

This was never in my original post... I use a variety of sources, one of those is streaming yes but bitrate is not the issue here. I'm sure some will disagree, but you can find many sources that streaming quality on a service like google play is around 320kbps on a wired connection give or take a little - so I'm not dealing with low enough bitrates (like in the 96kbps range) where the compression is legitimately the factor at play here. I also have a personal collection all encoded w/ lossless compression etc, and work w/ raw wav's in my DAW.
 
But yes I would like them to be used for analysis of detail and the ultrasones are pretty much the only thing I can use to get that. The JBL's are better for the overall mix - to see the forest for the trees, but the ultrasones are certainly better for the trees themselves. Especially to isolate a guitar part and to see how the effects can develop over a few measures etc.
 
And yeah I'm not looking for a "mixing headphones" persay - but I'd like something that I could use to evaluate a mix, or parts of a mix. And I don't have a super large budget so I have to try and get something that does an ok job at both (like the ultrasones). I will say though that I like the JBL's presentation of the music. It seems "honest" I suppose (for lack of a better word) - the Ultrasones seem like anything will sound good on them whereas if I can get something to sound good on JBL's it will sound good on anything. (and let's be honest, the people I'm showing this music to are not going to be listening on good quality headphones or speakers)
 
The EQ I have been using is okay to reduce the shrillness - I have to remember to switch it back to neutral when I'm on the speakers. Still when I was listening to glassworks earlier I noticed simply reducing gain in the highs didn't make the upper synths sound less shrill, but just less loud, but it was certainly more manageable. 

Maybe I'm just getting old and can't take as high of volumes as I used to when I was younger! It seems like you own some Ultrasones or at least are experienced with them - so I'll take it on good faith that it's just how they are - and maybe s-logic isn't for my ears. Worst part is this is a recent-ish thing for me. There's a few pro audio places in town and a lot of them have the type of headphones I'm interested in "supplementing" the ultrasones with. Pretty much all of them have the various Sennheiser model(s) so I can try them out I suppose. The DAC on my phone is a lot worse than my focusrite so I don't know how much I'll be able to discern from any in-shop trials but I could get a basis for what to expect (I'm sure if I demo whatever amp's they have in the shops I will also get a bad representation of what to expect).

 

[crenfro]

Looks like none of those Sennheisers will be able to even be driven by my focusrite anyway I assumed the impedance was on par w/ my Ultrasones but the HD600 is almost 10x the impedance!

 

[obobskivich]

This was never in my original post... I use a variety of sources, one of those is streaming yes but bitrate is not the issue here. I'm sure some will disagree, but you can find many sources that streaming quality on a service like google play is around 320kbps on a wired connection give or take a little - so I'm not dealing with low enough bitrates (like in the 96kbps range) where the compression is legitimately the factor at play here. I also have a personal collection all encoded w/ lossless compression etc, and work w/ raw wav's in my DAW.

This clarifies things significantly vs "I'm listening to streaming music." Thanks.

For this usage, the Sennheisers would be equally competent as the Ultrasone, and offer another perspective on whatever you're working with in the DAW (they have very different tonal balances).

But yes I would like them to be used for analysis of detail and the ultrasones are pretty much the only thing I can use to get that. The JBL's are better for the overall mix - to see the forest for the trees, but the ultrasones are certainly better for the trees themselves. Especially to isolate a guitar part and to see how the effects can develop over a few measures etc.

Yes. This is generally where headphones can come into play with mixing, but I'm not sure Ultrasones would've been my first choice (despite their "Pro" marketing) - something like the HD 280 Pro or HD 600 just feels more "right" for that usage, but for listening to music, yeah I like my Ultrasones quite a bit. If I had both as options, that would be no problem either.

And yeah I'm not looking for a "mixing headphones" persay - but I'd like something that I could use to evaluate a mix, or parts of a mix. And I don't have a super large budget so I have to try and get something that does an ok job at both (like the ultrasones). I will say though that I like the JBL's presentation of the music. It seems "honest" I suppose (for lack of a better word) - the Ultrasones seem like anything will sound good on them whereas if I can get something to sound good on JBL's it will sound good on anything. (and let's be honest, the people I'm showing this music to are not going to be listening on good quality headphones or speakers)

I haven't heard the PRO750, but in my experience with the "PRO" Ultrasone headphones, they tend to be very unforgiving of shrill, harsh, aggressive, forward, etc material, as well as compressed material. Certainly not in the genre of "anything will sound good on them." That sounds more like the HFI-2400 which are very forgiving.

You will never re-create what the speakers are doing with headphones. But you can get headphones that do a good job for what you're after, and I think the HD 600 are probably the right way to go.

The EQ I have been using is okay to reduce the shrillness - I have to remember to switch it back to neutral when I'm on the speakers. Still when I was listening to glassworks earlier I noticed simply reducing gain in the highs didn't make the upper synths sound less shrill, but just less loud, but it was certainly more manageable. 

Certainly an option, especially for music listening (for music listening really you can do whatever you want - its fun time, but for "work" I'd be disinclined to rely as heavily on EQ (especially if its "to taste" as you may end up masking some nastiness that's hiding in there). The nice thing with headphones is you could have 2-3 pairs and listen to the same piece on each of them, and get 2-3 different perspectives, plus what your monitors are telling you.

Maybe I'm just getting old and can't take as high of volumes as I used to when I was younger! It seems like you own some Ultrasones or at least are experienced with them - so I'll take it on good faith that it's just how they are - and maybe s-logic isn't for my ears.

I've owned the HFI-2400, PRO900, and still own the PRO2900, and I've used/heard some of the lesser PRO models (the ones they don't make anymore, that look like the Signature or Tribute headphones, but all plastic, and that weren't mega-bucks) - never the 750 though. What you're describing in terms of "everything sounds good" coupled with periodic top-end harshness is a bit "off" to me - the HFI-2400 were/are very forgiving (and they're marketed as a hi-fi/music enjoyment headphone), while the 900 and 2900 are brutally unforgiving of garbage material (but despite that, they're way too colored for monitoring imho). Maybe the 750s are trying to strike some balance in-between, I don't know. But yes, some people do hear Ultrasone as very harsh or bright, and its related to S-LOGIC (there's also a more recent phenomenon of just bashing the heck out of Ultrasone simply because they're there and some people want to make fun of products that they can't afford).

Worst part is this is a recent-ish thing for me. There's a few pro audio places in town and a lot of them have the type of headphones I'm interested in "supplementing" the ultrasones with. Pretty much all of them have the various Sennheiser model(s) so I can try them out I suppose. The DAC on my phone is a lot worse than my focusrite so I don't know how much I'll be able to discern from any in-shop trials but I could get a basis for what to expect (I'm sure if I demo whatever amp's they have in the shops I will also get a bad representation of what to expect).

Honestly, IME, differences between DACs are pretty minimal, so that isn't what I'd be worried about. What's more potentially at issue is whether or not the phone's amplifier can drive whatever headphones you want to test, but if whatever shop will let you plug the phone into a board or an amp or something and let you try the headphones that way, that should remove a lot of that doubt.

Looks like none of those Sennheisers will be able to even be driven by my focusrite anyway I assumed the impedance was on par w/ my Ultrasones but the HD600 is almost 10x the impedance!

So?

They're 300 ohms nominal, but they aren't horribly insensitive or anything like that - most AC-powered devices with headphone jacks/headphone amps can drive them. Impedance is not a "hard to drive-ness" metric. I would be surprised if a studio-oriented product couldn't handle higher impedance headphones either - historically a lot of studio cans ran in that 250-300 ohm range (e.g. Beyerdynamic, Sennheiser, AKG, Koss).

 

[crenfro]

Wow. Thanks! This is all very helpful. I feel like I'm inevitably going to be searching for a new pair. I brought my Ultrasones to work and they work great for what I want which is classical music. This is all I can listen to and still focus (vocal music not so much).
 

The nice thing with headphones is you could have 2-3 pairs and listen to the same piece on each of them, and get 2-3 different perspective

Yeah this is pretty much the reason I use headphones for the mix. The JBL monitor speakers are the ultimate judgement call for sure though. 
 
And yeah I don't think I clarified well as far as the "sounds good" vs. "unforgiving" - everything I mix with is a .wav - so it's easy to make a mix "sound good" on the Ultrasones - mostly due to the fact that it offers the listener a lot of detail of whatever is going on (and everything in my mix is high quality) yet it won't sound "good" on something else w/ a different frequency response, or headphones/speakers that don't provide as much detail (which is 99% of the people I show my music to). Essentially I can create a mix w/ the Ultrasones that rely's on the Ultrasone's level of detail and the profile of the headphones themselves to "sound good"
 
That said - it's also "unforgiving" of low bitrates / poorly compressed music etc. too. Thankfully it wasn't my first pair of decent headphones, so I had re-compressed my entire library at either lossless or very-high before I had them. I remember my first pair of Senn's I was able to hear low bitrates and I did a complete overhaul. Those were the days! Can't believe I've had these ultrasones for almost a decade!
 
Anyway - I think the Ultrasones will be great for casual listening at low volumes at work.
 
I have a USB powered focusrite 2i4 at home. Noticed it had these specs:
 

Output Impedance	< 12Ω
Power Output into 32Ω	24mW

I found some calculators online, and it looks like the focusrite 2i4 might be OK at driving a pair of HD600's but maybe it is a bit underpowered? Another route to go is HD700 (lower impedance) or to get an amplifier. I wonder if the scarlett focusrite 2i4's unbalanced output could go into the input of a headphone amp? Or is the fact that it's USB powered make it more susceptible to noise? Despite having a degree in electrical engineering I really don't know.
 
If it's possible to use the DAC of my focusrite and then get a $100 Schiit amp, then power the sennheisers I could go that route. I know massdrop has a Little Dot MKIII Tube Headphone Amp at a discount, but then the "color-free mixing" goes out the window, probably go for a solid state and not add any color/distortion if I even want a chance of using it for mixing. If using the output of the focusrite-as-DAC isn't a good idea, then I need to stick to a pair of low impedance headphones like the hifiman he400-i. Decisions decisions. 
 
I haven't found much evidence online of someone using the focusrite 2i4 as a DAC-only. I don't want to buy a high impedance pair and a new AMP to *also* find out that I need a new DAC which will mean that I can't use any of the monitoring features of my focusrite 2i4. Decisions decisions.
 
I'd say at this point I'm 80% wanting a setup for recreational listening and 20% wanting something to mix with. Or essentially I'm looking to use the Ultrasones at work, and have something "for fun" at home that I can also use for a "2nd opinion" while mixing. This discussion has very much strayed from the original topic of "how can I fix my ultrasones" to "how can I get a good setup at home" since I'm essentially sold on my re-purposing of the ultrasones to "good pair of decent quality headphones to use at work @ moderate volumes" where the issues I've described aren't even salient.
 
And I'm by no means dissing on Ultrasone - the 750's are my baby and have been for almost a decade. Really just looking to add something new to the "mix" - no pun intended.
 
Thanks for all your help!

 

[obobskivich]

Wow. Thanks! This is all very helpful. I feel like I'm inevitably going to be searching for a new pair. I brought my Ultrasones to work and they work great for what I want which is classical music. This is all I can listen to and still focus (vocal music not so much).

Yeah this is pretty much the reason I use headphones for the mix. The JBL monitor speakers are the ultimate judgement call for sure though. 

And yeah I don't think I clarified well as far as the "sounds good" vs. "unforgiving" - everything I mix with is a .wav - so it's easy to make a mix "sound good" on the Ultrasones - mostly due to the fact that it offers the listener a lot of detail of whatever is going on (and everything in my mix is high quality) yet it won't sound "good" on something else w/ a different frequency response, or headphones/speakers that don't provide as much detail (which is 99% of the people I show my music to). Essentially I can create a mix w/ the Ultrasones that rely's on the Ultrasone's level of detail and the profile of the headphones themselves to "sound good"

Oh, that makes total sense now.

That said - it's also "unforgiving" of low bitrates / poorly compressed music etc. too. Thankfully it wasn't my first pair of decent headphones, so I had re-compressed my entire library at either lossless or very-high before I had them. I remember my first pair of Senn's I was able to hear low bitrates and I did a complete overhaul. Those were the days! Can't believe I've had these ultrasones for almost a decade!

Its still "those days" for some venues, sadly.

I have a USB powered focusrite 2i4 at home. Noticed it had these specs:

Output Impedance	< 12Ω
Power Output into 32Ω	24mW

Not enough information to say, unfortunately. 24 mW is more than enough power for the sensitivity level of the HD 600s, but that specification is at 32 ohms, not 300 - we simply don't know what it does at 300. It may be the same 24 mW, or it may be lower, or it may be higher.

I found some calculators online, and it looks like the focusrite 2i4 might be OK at driving a pair of HD600's but maybe it is a bit underpowered? Another route to go is HD700 (lower impedance) or to get an amplifier. I wonder if the scarlett focusrite 2i4's unbalanced output could go into the input of a headphone amp? Or is the fact that it's USB powered make it more susceptible to noise? Despite having a degree in electrical engineering I really don't know.

I don't know the HD 700, but they are at 150 ohms. But again, without more info about the output, its impossible to know whether or not it would work. Yes the unbalanced outs could drive a headphone amp and there should be no problem (low output impedance into high load impedance coupled with proper directionally shielded cables should pretty much address noise concerns too).

If it's possible to use the DAC of my focusrite and then get a $100 Schiit amp, then power the sennheisers I could go that route. I know massdrop has a Little Dot MKIII Tube Headphone Amp at a discount, but then the "color-free mixing" goes out the window, probably go for a solid state and not add any color/distortion if I even want a chance of using it for mixing. If using the output of the focusrite-as-DAC isn't a good idea, then I need to stick to a pair of low impedance headphones like the hifiman he400-i. Decisions decisions. 

Something like the HiFiMan may not be a good choice - they're fairly low sensitivity. Sensitivity is really the spec you need to be looking at here, not impedance.

As far as "get an amp" yes you could do that - I've never used any Schiit products though. I've had good experiences with Musical Fidelity and CI Audio amps though.

I haven't found much evidence online of someone using the focusrite 2i4 as a DAC-only. I don't want to buy a high impedance pair and a new AMP to *also* find out that I need a new DAC which will mean that I can't use any of the monitoring features of my focusrite 2i4. Decisions decisions.

Well its not a "DAC" so that's probably why such searches don't yield anything. It's an audio interface. It can provide line outputs to any device with line inputs. What's the problem with connecting a headphone amplifier there?

I do realize in recent years marketing has gone insane with the "USB DAC" phenomenon, but ultimately they're USB soundcards - no different than the PCI devices we all had years ago, they've just moved them out of the box to appease mobile users and mythological beliefs about "more boxes = more better."

I'd say at this point I'm 80% wanting a setup for recreational listening and 20% wanting something to mix with. Or essentially I'm looking to use the Ultrasones at work, and have something "for fun" at home that I can also use for a "2nd opinion" while mixing. This discussion has very much strayed from the original topic of "how can I fix my ultrasones" to "how can I get a good setup at home" since I'm essentially sold on my re-purposing of the ultrasones to "good pair of decent quality headphones to use at work @ moderate volumes" where the issues I've described aren't even salient.

And I'm by no means dissing on Ultrasone - the 750's are my baby and have been for almost a decade. Really just looking to add something new to the "mix" - no pun intended.

Thanks for all your help!

Were it me, I'd say give the HD 600 a shot from a dealer that has a nice return policy, see how they work with the 2i4, and if its not giving you sufficient volume, add an external amplifier where needed. If you went with a more studio-oriented box (e.g. Behringer, Rane, ART, etc) you can get devices with multiple (separate) headphone jacks so you could have both cans hooked up (with independent volume levels) to make quicker comparisons, if you so desired.

 

[crenfro]

 Sensitivity is really the spec you need to be looking at here, not impedance.

 
Yeah, I've been reading some articles and watching some videos about this, got some learning to do. Worst thing is I took some classes on amplifiers, didn't do it professionally, and it all went away. Found some good resources on these topics though.
 

Well its not a "DAC"... It's an audio interface... in recent years marketing has gone insane with the "USB DAC" phenomenon, but ultimately they're USB soundcards - no different than the PCI devices we all had years ago, they've just moved them out of the box to appease mobile users and mythological beliefs about "more boxes = more better."

 
Yeah I kind of get this sense too. I don't want to pay $100 for a standalone DAC unit when my focusrite will do the "digital to analog" part just fine. I'm sure there are some folks who can notice a difference between levels of quality in DAC (due to the fact that there are thousands of threads on here discussing them), but I doubt I am going to get much more out of a standalone unit vs. what my focusrite already does esp. given my overall budget I'd like to keep under $1000 - preferably a lot less. Unless there's some serious technical limitation of the focusrite that I'm unaware of I'll give it a shot and then next step will be an amp.
 
I think your advice of getting the HD600's then an amp if needed is a good starting point. Focusrite didn't spec the power output at more than 1 impedance, so I suppose it's difficult to know how the built-in amp will perform.
 
I think the Ultrasones will do great at their new purpose and I will continue to enjoy them at the quite tolerable lower volume levels. The closed back is perfect for work and most of the classical recordings I listen to work really well through them especially at low to medium volume levels.
 
This has all been really helpful though, thank you for your time.