UDIAL on E-MU0404 supposed to be absolutely CLEAN ?

Nov 5, 2004 at 6:21 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

pockerface90

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I played around with the UDIAL sound (and yes, i know it can be dangerous to ears if played too loud , too many times), with both my Audigy 2 and E-MU 0404 , installed both together and separate.

I heard the sound from the 0404 should be clean, meaning you hear the dialing tones. Well, I can hear the dialing tones very good but there is also a "noise"-like sound.

Rega-Ear volume is at 13o'clock (like it says in the manual), and the E-MU mixer (Patch Mix), is at -26dB (about 1/3 up from min). This is a good listening volume, not loud at all. At this settings i hear clean tones, i cannot hear the "noise"-like sound.

At -18.51 (almost 1/2 mixer volume) , same Rega Ear volume, the "noise" is there. There are 7 easily distinctive dial "sounds". The first 3 played in a quicker tempo (sounds like the same tone, too), sound CLEAN. After the 3rd tone , I hear this "noise" in the background (noise volume is a lot lower than the tones volume, that's why I dont hear it at low volume listening).

Do you hear any other sounds than the dialing tone ? (Don't forget not to repeat it too often and not to play it too loud , because it's dangerous to ears and equipment!)


just for testing, if i change the internal clock of the 0404 to 48khz, the UDIAL sounds terrible , with -louder than the tones- "alien like" sounds. NOW, something interesting: if i run the software resampler from foobar, resampling at 48khz, 0404 internal clock at 48khz, the result i hear is a bit CLEANER than the original setting (internat clock at 44khz , no software resampling ). The noise is also there, but the noise volume is a bit lower (maybe i am wrong).

Does this make sense ? Since the cleanest sound should come from the 44khz clock with no resampling at all... I mean this is why i bought the e-mu in the first place, because there should be no internal resampling.

I run the E-MU with the original drivers from the CD, and I think i know how to change the internal clock , with settings in PatchMix DSP
smily_headphones1.gif
, output is Kernel Streaming.

With the Audigy and no software resampling it sounds with loud alien sounds again, because of the internal resampling. WITH software resampling it sounds about the same like the e-mu with 44khz internal clock, no resampling. (the low volume noise).

Somehow i expected to hear a difference with a test signal like that ... any ideas ? Does this mean i cannot hear differences between the foobar software resampler and the E-MU with 44khz - no resampling ?
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 6:28 PM Post #2 of 19
ok, last thing , i did some "extreme testing" , with the rega at max and e-mu mixer very close to max.

DO NOT DO THIS ON YOUR OWN !!! Your boxes will explode , your ears will bleed, your hair will fall!!!
i did not actually had my ears between the cans, and i played it only 2-3 times.

AS IT GETS louder, the "noise" sounds more and more like the "alien" sounds described above (which you get if you play it at a different sample rate than the internal clock , without software resampling at all).

AT NEAR MAX, without notice , i hear the alien sounds again. 44khz signal , 44khz internal clock , no DSPs activated!

Again, this should remain a theoretical discussion, do not try it on your own equipment, especially not on your boxes! Do not repeat the sound more than 10-15 times, in low volumes either. NORMAL listening volume is already TOO MUCH!
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 7:05 PM Post #3 of 19
The big question is, why would you do this? If it adds no noise at listenable levels, the noise floor is low enough so you can enjoy the signal at a normal level, no?
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 7:39 PM Post #4 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn
The big question is, why would you do this? If it adds no noise at listenable levels, the noise floor is low enough so you can enjoy the signal at a normal level, no?


I hate playing that sound actually, but if I pay extra $200 for a new soundcard and cables I just want to be sure it's all set up right and I get the right quality out of it. The UDIAL was taken as an example to why the E-MU should be better than the Audigy.

I am very curious if someone here can also ear the same noise ?
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 8:11 PM Post #5 of 19
one thing is a fact, 0404 does have oscillator just for 48 & multiples, while the rest of E-MU cards have both, for 44.1 and 48..
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 8:18 PM Post #6 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by pockerface90
I hate playing that sound actually, but if I pay extra $200 for a new soundcard and cables I just want to be sure it's all set up right and I get the right quality out of it. The UDIAL was taken as an example to why the E-MU should be better than the Audigy.

I am very curious if someone here can also ear the same noise ?



The sound you hear from the E-MU compared to the Audigy should be example enough as to why the E-MU is better
wink.gif


I will never use UDIAL, it can harm your equipment also, not only your ears, playing it that loud.
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 8:22 PM Post #7 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman
one thing is a fact, 0404 does have oscillator just for 48 & multiples, while the rest of E-MU cards have both, for 44.1 and 48..


Hmmph, why do they save up on things like that? Can't be too expensive parts when $25 cards can have them.
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 8:38 PM Post #8 of 19
yes, it's kinda weird, but they shure have their reasons we might not see clearly.. in fact, they surprised me when they used two opamps just to buffer DAC's outputs, which as a result just slightly improve measured THD and IMD by less than a couple of dB.. I believe it's possible to design the analog filter in such way it doesn't pose load to the DAC's outputs so that adding those buffers wouldn't result in improved THD.. and when you remove them it actually sounds better
smily_headphones1.gif
ICHi said something about cutting corners on the cheap product, they seem to cut at weird points however..

re: $25 card with both.. in that case we're talking about generic crystals where the oscillator cirquit is inside the Envy controller, E-MU cards do use crystal oscillators probably of very good quality, so don't mix peals with apples
wink.gif
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 9:21 PM Post #9 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asmo
The sound you hear from the E-MU compared to the Audigy should be example enough as to why the E-MU is better
wink.gif


I will never use UDIAL, it can harm your equipment also, not only your ears, playing it that loud.



it wont do nothing to headphones if you play it 3 times, even at near max.

well, fact is, after some music tests, i cannot hear any difference between the 2 soundcards... And i am using really crap cables to connect to the audigy2 speaker out. (for the e-mu , i have "Fast Audio" cables , paid 100$ for not even 1m). I am not an audiophile, I dont really know to what exactly i should pay attention when listening...
the music plays the same on both cards for my ears...
i tried to listen and compare the voice, high tones, bass etc ... i'm not really good at this. It really sounds great thanks to the Senns 595 and Rega Ear, but I cannot hear why the E-MU is better than the A2.

(offcourse I tested with a lossless source , flac or ape, both in 44khz and 48khz)
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 9:49 PM Post #10 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by pockerface90
it wont do nothing to headphones if you play it 3 times, even at near max.

well, fact is, after some music tests, i cannot hear any difference between the 2 soundcards... And i am using really crap cables to connect to the audigy2 speaker out. (for the e-mu , i have "Fast Audio" cables , paid 100$ for not even 1m). I am not an audiophile, I dont really know to what exactly i should pay attention when listening...
the music plays the same on both cards for my ears...
i tried to listen and compare the voice, high tones, bass etc ... i'm not really good at this. It really sounds great thanks to the Senns 595 and Rega Ear, but I cannot hear why the E-MU is better than the A2.

(offcourse I tested with a lossless source , flac or ape, both in 44khz and 48khz)



Dunno what to say, I'm sure you've read the countless threads on how to setup foobar etc, you are using ASIO output correct? And what patchmix settings?
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 9:57 PM Post #11 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asmo
Dunno what to say, I'm sure you've read the countless threads on how to setup foobar etc, you are using ASIO output correct? And what patchmix settings?



well , maybe i did not do my homework 100%
smily_headphones1.gif
I am very busy and just wanted to get THE sound without having to spend lots of hours on reading. Still, I spent a LOT of time, but no, i did not go into detail about setting up foobar and patchmix settings.

Patchmix is default ... i did not change anything , i just change the clock from 44khz to 48khz depending on the source.

Foobar is setup with kernel stream and buffer length 1000ms.

I got the ASIO dll for foobar , but i get an error with ASIO output. I did not install any other drivers for the E-MU .... I guess there is a special ASIO driver i must get .... ?

I'll do some more research on this , seems like research time is not finished yet
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 10:11 PM Post #12 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by pockerface90
well , maybe i did not do my homework 100%
smily_headphones1.gif
I am very busy and just wanted to get THE sound without having to spend lots of hours on reading. Still, I spent a LOT of time, but no, i did not go into detail about setting up foobar and patchmix settings.

Patchmix is default ... i did not change anything , i just change the clock from 44khz to 48khz depending on the source.

Foobar is setup with kernel stream and buffer length 1000ms.

I got the ASIO dll for foobar , but i get an error with ASIO output. I did not install any other drivers for the E-MU .... I guess there is a special ASIO driver i must get .... ?

I'll do some more research on this , seems like research time is not finished yet
smily_headphones1.gif




There is your problem, do not use kernal streaming, use asio.

What source do you have that uses 48khz?

You have the latest E-MU drivers installed?

For patchmix, yes default should be fine, at 44.1khz or 96khz if you use re-sampling in foobar.

Here is a quicky setup for foobar:

Playback: set output to 32 bit fixed point, no dithering, replaygain up to you.
DSP Manager: only have advanced limiter here (you can add re-sampling later)
Output, select ASIO (exe version)

that should be it, if you get a ASIO error, I would make sure patchmix is using 44.1khz internal clock.

Also in patchmix, go into session settings, you can adjust the I/O to +4 or -10 , +4 is for balanced, -10 for unbalanced, you can run +4 with unbalanced cables just fines, but it if sounds too 'hot' use the -10 setting. I would recommend using +4 if it sounds ok.
 
Nov 5, 2004 at 11:58 PM Post #13 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asmo
There is your problem, do not use kernal streaming, use asio.

What source do you have that uses 48khz?

You have the latest E-MU drivers installed?

For patchmix, yes default should be fine, at 44.1khz or 96khz if you use re-sampling in foobar.

Here is a quicky setup for foobar:

Playback: set output to 32 bit fixed point, no dithering, replaygain up to you.
DSP Manager: only have advanced limiter here (you can add re-sampling later)
Output, select ASIO (exe version)

that should be it, if you get a ASIO error, I would make sure patchmix is using 44.1khz internal clock.

Also in patchmix, go into session settings, you can adjust the I/O to +4 or -10 , +4 is for balanced, -10 for unbalanced, you can run +4 with unbalanced cables just fines, but it if sounds too 'hot' use the -10 setting. I would recommend using +4 if it sounds ok.



alright, thanks a lot for this info

- I cannot set the internal clock at 96khz , it's greyed out. Should i be able to?

- Also, in PatchMix , session settings , I/O , i don't have options to input -10 or +4 (what settings are this ??) , but only to check PCI S/PDIF input (coax or optical) and S/PDIF output format (AES/EBU or S/PDIF)....

- I installed the latest E-MU drivers, but it wont let me install the latest PatchMix hotfix, it says i dont have PatchMix installed. I tried with PatchMix both running and not running.

- ASIO , (working with a dll asio , i found here on the forums), I made it work, I dont know if i did it right, though : The mixer showed the sound was coming from WAVE, Stereo1 and I sent it to ASIO IN (stereo2 , ASIO IN 7/8 - HOST). Is this right ?

(edit : i had some flac files with the fugees
smily_headphones1.gif
, 48khz , 6 channels)
 
Nov 6, 2004 at 12:32 AM Post #14 of 19
my bad, I forgot 0404 does not have balanced in/out, (I have the 1212m)

On my patchmix, when playing via asio, it is stereo 2 strip, asio out 31/32 (default session)

Hmm, the E-MU updates don't work? Maybe remove all software and re-install off the CD, then the latest updates, but either way, it should still work fine and sound great.
 
Nov 6, 2004 at 1:40 AM Post #15 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asmo
my bad, I forgot 0404 does not have balanced in/out, (I have the 1212m)

On my patchmix, when playing via asio, it is stereo 2 strip, asio out 31/32 (default session)

Hmm, the E-MU updates don't work? Maybe remove all software and re-install off the CD, then the latest updates, but either way, it should still work fine and sound great.



well, it looks good yes...
and it sounds great ! Maybe I must do more test with different music styles, so i will discover more subtile differences between the cards.

thanks for your help!
 

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