Tube rolling

Mar 26, 2022 at 5:21 AM Post #196 of 235
What I was referring to was the pursuit of improvements that make no audible difference, or going after coloration in a way that is hard to control and costs a great deal of money, when there are much easier ways to achieve the same coloration.
As we know, audiophiles tend to only consider the audiophile world, rather than the audio world in general.

In the case of tubes, audiophiles are only a small part of the market, the larger part of the market is electric guitarists. In that larger tube consuming world, there are some valid reasons for using tubes for “going after colouration”.

G
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 5:23 AM Post #197 of 235
Just like high sampling and bit rates have usss in pro audio, but not consumer!
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 5:39 AM Post #198 of 235
Just like high sampling and bit rates have usss in pro audio, but not consumer!
It’s not quite the same thing. All but the young guitarists have grown up with guitar tube amps/cabs. After years of experimenting they can get the sound they’re after usually in just a few minutes or less. There’s a steep learning curve with digital equivalents and even after that, it could take hours or days to dial in the exact sound/s they’re used to and sometimes they may never quite find it, because there’s almost exponentially more combinations of parameters to play with, rather than just the 6 or so knobs/pots they’re used to.

Maybe the current shortage of tubes will push more of them to the digital equivalents? Probably but time will tell.

G
 
Apr 1, 2022 at 2:41 AM Post #199 of 235
It’s not quite the same thing. All but the young guitarists have grown up with guitar tube amps/cabs. After years of experimenting they can get the sound they’re after usually in just a few minutes or less. There’s a steep learning curve with digital equivalents and even after that, it could take hours or days to dial in the exact sound/s they’re used to and sometimes they may never quite find it, because there’s almost exponentially more combinations of parameters to play with, rather than just the 6 or so knobs/pots they’re used to.

Maybe the current shortage of tubes will push more of them to the digital equivalents? Probably but time will tell.

G
Just as someone who knows some independent musicians and engineers: currently tubes certainly just aren't a market for audiophiles, but also musicians. They seem just as opinionated about "best" tube for distortion. One of my friends that does do professional mixing, also is collecting different tube stages for guitar effects. I think even the youngest guitarists now might also be swayed into trying and thinking a tube stage the best. I think it's going to stay a mix....where a guitarist like the Edge is going to use the "best" of digital switchboards that can have a tube applied in there.

If my musical friends are an indicator, I think they may be slower in adopting digital only for all electronics. Even though as computing always improves, and sampling gets easy....I'm amazed by the folks who either think digital sounds sterile or that vinyl is always superior (from an aesthetic point, I would say cover art would be the main point apart from also hologram art).

A lot of this is also about the current issues of supply with Eastern Europe: as bad as the current war is, I don't think this will be a long trend. I'm also thinking about this as an American: where we're now constantly bombarded about how awful gas prices are. I remember how that was the same during Bush and Obama: some in the news saying they were thinking about ditching the SUV for an efficient car. Apparently they didn't follow through...as our demand still stays great, and we want lower prices for our high demand.
 
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Apr 1, 2022 at 6:02 AM Post #200 of 235
Just as someone who knows some independent musicians and engineers: currently tubes certainly just aren't a market for audiophiles, but also musicians. They seem just as opinionated about "best" tube for distortion. One of my friends that does do professional mixing, also is collecting different tube stages for guitar effects. I think even the youngest guitarists now might also be swayed into trying and thinking a tube stage the best. I think it's going to stay a mix....where a guitarist like the Edge is going to use the "best" of digital switchboards that can have a tube applied in there.

If my musical friends are an indicator, I think they may be slower in adopting digital only for all electronics. Even though as computing always improves, and sampling gets easy....I'm amazed by the folks who either think digital sounds sterile or that vinyl is always superior (from an aesthetic point, I would say cover art would be the main point apart from also hologram art).

A lot of this is also about the current issues of supply with Eastern Europe: as bad as the current war is, I don't think this will be a long trend. I'm also thinking about this as an American: where we're now constantly bombarded about how awful gas prices are. I remember how that was the same during Bush and Obama: some in the news saying they were thinking about ditching the SUV for an efficient car. Apparently they didn't follow through...as our demand still stays great, and we want lower prices for our high demand.

Tubes handle overdrive very well and sound won't go out of whack when pushed to the extremes. That's one of the main reasons why guitarists loves it. I do enjoy tubes too as it fits my personal tonal preferences. Depending on mood I can easily switch to SS

Vinyl discussions gets hostile here and while digital is better, vinyl's hosts lots of stuff not available in digital domain. Chances to retrieve music gets even smaller if you rely on streaming platforms like spotify/amazon...and yes decent turntable setup can sound amazing. Certain albums I buy specifically in LP format where I do enjoy the sound through my TT more than over digital. For a real music geek vinyl format doesn't bother. He will be happy to get his ears on artists in whichever domain that music exists.

We are in energy crunch and war is just a small leverage to it. Inflation, supply issues would have happened either way
 
Apr 3, 2022 at 11:01 PM Post #201 of 235
Is there an easy method to determine which tube are in demand?
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 3:20 AM Post #202 of 235
Is there an easy method to determine which tube are in demand?

Good sounding/budget tubes will always be in high demand. As price moves upwards once they reach supply constraints you usually start seeing lots of fake alternatives to fill the demand gap. In such scenario you can easily 2x your investment.

The only way I know is via web scraping script which would gather “out of stock” items from most popular tube merchants, but you would be already too late.
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 3:24 AM Post #203 of 235
Good sounding/budget tubes will always be in high demand. As price moves upwards once they reach supply constraints you usually start seeing lots of fake alternatives to fill the demand gap. In such scenario you can easily 2x your investment.

The only way I know is via web scraping script which would gather “out of stock” items from most popular tube merchants, but you would be already too late.
How about vintage tunes, like mullards or telefunkens?
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 3:58 AM Post #204 of 235
How about vintage tunes, like mullards or telefunkens?

I heard good words on telefunkens tubes. Personally I'm focused only on 12ax7 type of tubes as it is used on my preamp. Svetlana winged C already went in price at least 2x and is difficult to retrieve.

However if you are looking into this purely as investment purpose I think there are better ways to do it. Commodities, energy sector will grow in value for upcoming years. The best opportunity in life is already gone during the first pandemic lockdown, but there is still room to grow and retrieve decent returns
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 7:47 AM Post #205 of 235
I'm also thinking about this as an American: where we're now constantly bombarded about how awful gas prices are.
For Americans thinking $4-5 for a gallon is bad, gas is about $11 a gallon here in Finland. Luckily our public transportation system is so good in Helsinki I don't need to own a car. :relaxed:
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 1:13 PM Post #206 of 235
However if you are looking into this purely as investment purpose I think there are better ways to do it. Commodities, energy sector will grow in value for upcoming years. The best opportunity in life is already gone during the first pandemic lockdown, but there is still room to grow and retrieve decent returns
Oh, absolutely agree. This investment has already been made...

Don't laugh, but I kind of went overboard buying 12au7 tubes for a couple amps several years ago. This was before I lost a lot of hearing in my right ear. Thus, tube rolling is not the joy it once was. I've been pondering whether (and how) to reduce my collection, as I'm quite sure I'll never use them all.

It would probably be a good idea to get a tube tester from ebay, and see about having it calibrated. I don't know a single soul near me who has one. I suppose I should sell them the same way I bought them, on ebay. I just want to give prospective buyers a reliable measurement. Yes, I have enough tubes to sell, that the investment in a tester is worth it. I suppose that's the bright side.
 
Apr 4, 2022 at 10:09 PM Post #207 of 235
For Americans thinking $4-5 for a gallon is bad, gas is about $11 a gallon here in Finland. Luckily our public transportation system is so good in Helsinki I don't need to own a car. :relaxed:
Americans also have short attention spans.😀 SUV sales stagnated other times gas went up to $4. When prices lowered again, sales of SUVs went back up. I seem to hear more complaints about gas prices needing to drop than this being a good opportunity to have better energy conservation.
 
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Apr 5, 2022 at 5:36 AM Post #208 of 235
Oh, absolutely agree. This investment has already been made...

Don't laugh, but I kind of went overboard buying 12au7 tubes for a couple amps several years ago. This was before I lost a lot of hearing in my right ear. Thus, tube rolling is not the joy it once was. I've been pondering whether (and how) to reduce my collection, as I'm quite sure I'll never use them all.

It would probably be a good idea to get a tube tester from ebay, and see about having it calibrated. I don't know a single soul near me who has one. I suppose I should sell them the same way I bought them, on ebay. I just want to give prospective buyers a reliable measurement. Yes, I have enough tubes to sell, that the investment in a tester is worth it. I suppose that's the bright side.

Majority of us listens to music way to loud and unfortunately become alert when the damage is done. Myself got tinnitus which impacts my sleep and rarely easies(which either is caused by IEM or stress periods at work). To me the big advantage of highly dynamic & fast transducers is that it can grab all the intensity from music even on low volumes.

Didn't get much into tube rolling, but it can be very rewarding once you hit your preferences. I've never came close on SS amp with such a dense & life like presentation like I did on tube setup with Svetlana winged C 12ax7. In my experience certain Russian tubes gives best bang for the $, got only disappointments with chinese ones.

I wouldn't rush selling tubes which are in demand, it will go higher in prices for sure. Energy sector was underfinanced for long time and this will result in higher prices everywhere not just gas/oil.
 
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Apr 5, 2022 at 8:54 AM Post #209 of 235
Majority of us listens to music way to loud and unfortunately become alert when the damage is done. Myself got tinnitus which impacts my sleep and rarely easies(which either is caused by IEM or stress periods at work). To me the big advantage of highly dynamic & fast transducers is that it can grab all the intensity from music even on low volumes.
Yes. I was a musician when I was young, so part of the misery of Tinnitus is paying the price for enjoying loud music.

In my case, I developed a somewhat rare condition called Meniere's disease. It hit me quite suddenly, just as I turned 60 (3 yrs ago)... Meniere's is a combination of Tinnitus, hearing loss, and vertigo. There is no known cause, or cure. About 0.189% of the population is affected.

The Tinnitus and hearing loss affect one ear, and curiously vary just a bit when I 'pop' my ears. Usually though, it's constant and quite loud... I estimate the sound to be roughly an 8KHz sine wave, blasting around 85dB. Yeah, that's loud. The hearing loss is about 70% or so in that ear (thankfully my left ear remains unaffected).

The vertigo was initially very debilitating. I would get random attacks spaced a few days apart. The worst cases required me to lay in bed in a dark room, eyes shut, without moving, for 24+ hours. I started tracking the attacks on a spreadsheet, recorded their length, and rated their severity from 1-10. I could still function during attacks on my 1-3 scale. The 4-6 attacks required the lying down treatment for several hours. The higher level attacks could require a full day in bed to recover.

My ENT doctor gave me Meclizine (non-drowsy Dramamine), which helped reduce the vertigo, if taken early enough. It doesn't do much to halt a severe attack.

I eventually noticed that the position I was laying down in (to recover from the attacks), would also help prevent the attacks! Over time, with some experimentation I discovered that lying on my right side would bring on the attacks. If I slept on my tummy, left side, or on my back (while leaning left a bit), I could prevent the vertigo attacks completely! That was a major relief. I only rarely take meclizine any more, and then only if I know I'll be up and about for a while.

I apologize for the long post. I mean to share my experience in the hope that it helps someone who is still suffering.
 
Apr 5, 2022 at 12:37 PM Post #210 of 235
Youtube is full of tinnitus relief videos, but I suppose they are all click-bait nonsense?

Fortunately I don't suffer from tinnitus myself (I am not a musician nor have I listened to very loud music much in my life), but if I did, I would try all the tricks on Youtube. I mean the tricks such as snapping fingers against the back of your head etc. seem pretty harmless so why not try?
 

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