Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If our eyes are capable of distinguishing an infinite array of shades from total lightness to darkness, but yet we can't pass "double deaf tests" to "prove" that we in fact can see these things that we KNOW we can see (because we see them every day with our own two eyes), then why in the world can't people accept even the POSSIBILITY that our ears are capable of differentiating on this same level of magnitude? Just as our hands give us a similar such sense of touch and our tongue gives us a similar such sense of taste!
No "double deaf test" is needed for me to know what I see, and even if I can't meaningfully describe, let alone differentiate, all of those shades of grey, I can see them! So can you, don't lie about it!
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I think your posts do invite us to think a bit more on the topics of hearing/perception/science/... and let's take this comparison between senses a bit further.
Yes we can see different shades of grey, but then again we can see them 'next to each other' at the same time so we have a point of reference to say that one is darker than the other, which we can't with cables.
Even with the advantage of being 'trained' by seeing them next to each other, it would be very difficult to say whether the next one was darker or lighter or the same if one was to be tested by being shown one shade at a time, especially with shades that are very close to each other. Say that you let enough time between the subsequent showing to ... say switch cables on a setup... that would make it even harder if not almost impossible. Even if you'd use two 'setups' parallel so you can switch faster (imagine two shades of grey behind widely separated square cutouts in a large white paper), your eyes might easily deceive you because of minor differences in shade of the paper (which wouldn't disturb us with widely different shades, but at a certain closeness of shades of grey, the heterogeneity of the paper might actually have an influence on our perception) or lighting etc.
So it is very likely that we would in fact fail a 'double deaf' test to differentiate close shades of grey. Of course this doesn't mean that there
is no difference between the shades of grey, just that we cannot
perceive it unless we can see them simultaneously and close enough to compare (in this case without any other color separating them). With sound (as in the case of sound being influenced by cables) we cannot ever hear them both simultaneously next to each other without polluting circumstances (you could wire one set to one ear and the other to the other ear and listen to a double mono file, but then there could still be a difference between your ears while seeing involves both eyes and doesn't suffer from this).
We could try and measure the shades we cannot distinguish in a 'deaf' test through scientific equipment (light meters measuring reflected light from a controlled source in a controlled environment), but even if this succeeds, we won't perceive them as similar unless we saw the shades next to each other. But once we know which one is darker, we might imagine that we do (= placebo).
The point I'm trying to make here is that perhaps the discussion about cables and double blind tests has been taking place at the wrong level... Blind tests and double blind test can not determine whether there
is a difference? They however can determine whether you can perceive the possible differences under specific conditions. For the 'double deaf' test designed above you are creating very artificial environment to be able to do the test, as we usually see different shades next to each other and can see differences that way.
With cables however, you can never listen to two 'shades' next to each other so the double blind test-setting isn't that artificial... it isn't really different from the normal situation ppl claim to perceive the differences in, except that someone else installs the cables and doesn't tell you which ones are installed (cables are always used in a setup and you can only use one set at a time).
Hence the reason the non-believers feel that a double blind test (you do not
know which set you are listening to) only tends to eliminate placebo: i.e. it forces you to come clean whether your auditive perception can distinguish possible differences.
To claim that a number of ppl failing a blind test proves that there are no differences is plain idiotic and ignorant of the fact that physics has already proven that often the test determines the outcome as much as the thing you are studying (see the light as waves/light as particles dilemma).
Luckily for the non-believers and unfortunately for the believers the needed double blind test-setting for cables is so close to the normal/natural setting that one could argue that someone failing a double blind test indeed does not
perceive any (significant) differences.
I personally don't care:
1) whether cables sound different (I recabled my SR-60 with SPC because I wanted to do it and I loved the look and I didn't think it would do anything for the worse, but as I had to 'destroy' the stock version and a lot of time passed before I could listen to the recabled version, so I can't compare...though it definitely doesn't sound bad now
)
2) whether someone wishes to believe/deny differences in sound due to cables... as long as he/she presents it as a belief and respects anyone else's belief as well. If one on the other hand claims to
be sure one hears the difference, I can only have respect for this if the person wouldn't refuse a blind test. (I didn't say pass a blind test... just the willingness to do one would earn my respect already)
I at least hereby promise never to make such statements unless I have tested myself (with help obviously). I did this with an MP3/ATRAC(3+)/FLAC/... discussion on MDCF as well and now I know what I can distinguish and what not. (I couldn't significantly distinguish high quality MP3's (LAME @ <V2) from lossless with my setup then, I can even back it up with the results from the ABX-program
...that reminds me that I really should take the test again with my current/better setup)
just my (long) two cents... and perhaps this will be quickly deleted as it discusses DBT... but hey, I had fun typing this
