[Rhydon]

I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any TOSLINK (optical) alternatives to the G5's optical out. When i listen to my system thru my G5's optical out to my DAC (Perpetual technologies P3a w/ monolithic) it sounds far worse then my Denon 2910 DVD players optical out to my DAC. Anyone know any mac soundcards with TOSLINK?? (no m-audio). OR is this just a matter of the denon having a superior sound no matter what (better transport?)

 

[dshea_32665]

You might try a Waveterminal U24 which runs around $199, sometimes less. I used to have an M-Audio Transit and this unit far surpasses it in quality. I am also using a Mac hooked into an Apogee Mini DAC. The units are connected with Glass Toslink. Since you also have a MAC, just plug it into your USB and you are good to go. No drivers, no anything.

There has been a lot written on this card in the last few months. Do a search. It is small, simple and doesn't have all kinds of extra things you will never use. Since you have a quality DAC, I don't know of anything better for the job than this card, except for maybe one of the Edirol units which would probably be similar in quality. Some stuff has been written in the PC Audio forum on Audiogon as well. But it seems like a number of people here have bought the unit in the past few months.

dshea

 

[Rhydon]

dshea_32665, Thanks for the reply. I too used to have the m-audio transit, back when i had a g4 w/no optical out. i used its optical out to my perpetual p3a. I was using power studio monitors at the time. In regards to the sound of the Transit, i always got the feeling it was missing something. I decided to go the direct PCI route; I bought the audiophile Delta Dio 24/96 (PCI with optical in/out coax etc.) As soon as i installed it i noticed a HUGE leap in sound quality, as if comparing a 128kb MP3 to a 16bit AIFF file. At that moment i told myself i would NEVER go the USB route again, there’s just too many variables.

When i moved up to the G5 the Dio wouldn’t work because of the g5 having PCI-X slots. So i was never able to compare it against the g5's internal TOSlink. The only reason im not crazy about the G5's optical is because, well, its apple. Apple has NEVER had a strong reputation, be it any reputation at all, for having even the slightest quality in their sound devices (hissing, humming, distorted, cheap, no QC). Il admit the G5's optical does not have any hiss or hum, but my denon sounds so much better. My #1 guess is that the transport in the denon is superior to the pioneer DVD drive i use to import the music. And that is why i want to buy the best TOSlink PCI solution for my G5. I kno Lynx is the most reputable in PC sound cards, but again i am loyal only to the Mac, and the lynx is far out of my price range (they start at 700$).

So again, if anyone knows any PCI soundcards for Mac that have TOSlink, let me know. OR if anyone has any comments/suggestions for my troubleshooting and opinions.

Rhydon.

 

[Mr.Radar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhydon So again, if anyone knows any PCI soundcards for Mac that have TOSlink, let me know. OR if anyone has any comments/suggestions for my troubleshooting and opinions.

What player are you using? If you're using iTunes be sure to have it setup like this to get bit-perfect output. The default iTunes settings ruin the sound quality. Also, if you're ripping your CDs with iTunes be sure you have error correction enabled.

 

[Rhydon]

Thanks Mr.Radar. I made the changes without a hitch. But just a question, i have about 40GB of Music CD's captured into itunes 16bit AIFF, they were captured without error correction.... Should i go back and recapture the CD's with error correction enabled? Would it make an audible difference?


Rhydon

 

[Rhydon]

Just found this dead link from July 03- "G5 Surround Sound: Pros Look Elsewhere: An informative article on the design and limitations of the TOSlink digital I/O ports on Apple's new G5 computers is posted at musiconmac. Read it here."

Hmmmm, yeah im not liking that one.... Too bad the link dosent actually work.

Anyone kno of any Toslink PCI cards for MAC?

 

[devwild]

I don't understand, do you have some specific thing against M-Audio? The Revo PCI cards work great on the mac (I use one), and have toslink. It's certainly a step up from Apple's onboard all around.

If that's not an option I think your best options by far are all external.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhydon Just found this dead link from July 03- "G5 Surround Sound: Pros Look Elsewhere: An informative article on the design and limitations of the TOSlink digital I/O ports on Apple's new G5 computers is posted at musiconmac. Read it here." Hmmmm, yeah im not liking that one.... Too bad the link dosent actually work.

Well, not that informative, this article.
Rhydon, you should improve your internet literacy.

Here is the useless article.

 

[bahamaman]

Here's what appears to be an excellent overview of why Apple's Toslink is inferior to USB:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...ht=g5&session=

I understood virtually nothing of the technical language, other than to say that it seems that the Toslink is substantially inferior to USB. As an owner of a G5 that was intending to go optically out to a Benchmark DAC1, I now wonder if incorporating the Waveterminal U24 would represent an important step up.

 

[Rhydon]

Ooooooooook guys.... Ketch-up time.

devwild, i have absolutely nothing against M-Audio. They make good stuff! But if you read my post, i said that the Delta Dio 24/96 would not work in my G5 because it wouldn’t fit into the new G5-spec PCI slots. I said that i wished i could bring the card thru my upgrade, but was forced only to use the g5's built in Toslink because of the PCI problem. I will further check out the REVO cards. However, if your card is that revolution 7.1 card that im thinking of, it only has a SPDIF coaxial output. Due to my system setup and preferences, i need Toslink Optical output.

cosmopragma, my apologies. When i had the link to the article it would not load, i also searched the internet for similar articles. I should of searched the net a little deeper. At the time i was so frustrated with no one being able to give me an answer, i jumped on anything i could find....But thanks for showing me the right one.

bahamaman, dont just jump on a USB DAC right away. I think the benchmark can beat any consumer DAC out there right now, especially the USB versions. I have found an EXCELENT solution to the G5's internal Toslink port, its a card called the Wave Center PCI. Do a google search on this and you will see what i mean- its a full studio quality D I/O alternative.

Now the question of me going the USB DAC route, will it ever happen? No. Why? Because i have my P3a/ monolithic combo, if i didn’t have my P3a, then i might be more willing to consider the opposite end of the table. Also, i had bad experience with the M-audio USB DAC, though some years ago, it doesn’t help my opinion of them. Also, that article about USB being inferior to Toslink i think may need to be verified by additional sources. I think the authors understanding of USB is correct, but he does not seem to grasp the hi-end audio industry. You are not going to get the same component build in a USB DAC, be it any USB DAC (that I kno of currently) that has the same quality chips, components, circuits, parts, as a Benchmark, the market just isn’t there yet.

So.... now what do I do. Well, I gotta spend another 300$ on a PCI card, that i think, but really do not know, will give me a better sounding toslink connection. This is horrible. Yet i cannot stop. mmmmmm.

So, again im open to suggestions to PCI cards. Currently i have the Wave Center PCI by frontier design in mind.... tho i wish there was a cheaper TOSLINK solution.



Rhydon.

 

[devwild]

I stand heartilly corrected, I sometimes forget which of my gear I use coaxial and which I use optical on, sorry. I'm going to assume you are using the coaxial input on your p3a elsewhere. There's always the adapter route but the amount of error that introduces is always in question.

I hadn't heard of the Delta so I didn't know it was M-Audio. As a G5 owner, just curious, why doesn't the older M-Audio PCI card work in the PCI-X slot? The current ones obviously work.

I admit, myself, I've been pretty flustered myself about the highly limited selection of internal cards for the G5. It's pretty clear that the accessory vendors have zero desire to commit to the current generation of power macs. External options can be a joke because the G5 has so few expansion ports, meaning hubs, power adapters, and devices with more power adapters. All on top of a gigantic wind tunnel of a case. Yuck.

Anyway, I hope you find some good solution. One thing I will add, the Transit is not an end all usb solution, the other audiophile solutions, firewire and usb both, are significantly better than you give them credit for. Regardless of interface, as long as there is enough bandwidth and the device is not crap, and sample rates are set up properly in software, bit perfect means bit perfect or aweful darn close.

 

[mbratrud]

Along with MrRadar's suggestion that you make sure your settings are properly selected for the best signal output you might also consider 1) the quality of the toslink cable and 2) clock jitter

I use a G5 and iTunes in my big stereo system. I first tried it directly out of the Mac's toslink via Audioquest's top of the line TosLink cable (on sale for $175 - which is cheap compared to my $3,300 per meter Valhalla ICs and my $6,000 for 8ft. run Valhalla speaker cable)....I ran the Toslink directly into a Burmester DAC....It didn't sound too good.

BUt after many discussions on AudiogoN and Asylum I decided to try reclocking/jitter reduction prior to going the USB to S/PDIF route. There are a few different theories about how to best eliminate jitter but I decided to go with the Apogee Big Ben - Largely due to the success of another audiophile on Agon who had a similarly high end stereo system to my own.

While not as good as my $18,000 Burmester CDP's belt drive transport, my Mac G5, run Toslink to an Apogee Big Ben and then out via a Stealth AES/EBU into my Burmester's DAC sounds wonderful and the iTunes interface for searching and playlists on my 170 Gig (Apple Lossless) music collection has really changed the way I listen to music. As I say, it is not as good as the high end CDP for critical listening inside the sweet spot but it is still very impressive.

I think you can get a Genesis lens used for around $450 on Audiogon and I have heard good things about that unit too.

 

[Rhydon]

Devwild: Hey no prob, actually i am not using the coaxial input to the P3a. But after all of this, and reading up on toslink vs. coaxial i may just be switching over (for value reasons). I cant seem to find a single decent Mac soundcard, that works in the G5, that has toslink. The Delta Dio was part of the last batch of M-Audio soundcards, very well built, but currently discontinued. The G5 has PCI-X slots, which requires the cards being installed in them to be PCI-X compliant. For example, on M-Audio's website it says the following: "All of M-Audio's audio cards have been designed to be PCI 2.2-compliant with support for both 3.3-volt and 5-volt PCI signaling environments. This guarantees compatibility with PCI-X, 64-bit, and standard 32-bit PCI-based systems, including the Apple G5".

All of the new M-Audio cards fit both the older PCI slots and the new PCI-X slots of the G5. However you’re right, it doesn’t really help apple's situation. Its just like when they dropped SCSI. But hey, at least they're making a step forward.

But thanks for the help devwild, i am probably gonna go the rev 5.1 route. Use its coaxial and just leave it be at that.


Mbratrud: I beleive it when you talk about the quality of the toslink cable. That is a very important part of the digital path. I have a Sound Professionals GLASS toslink cable (about 80$). However that wont really matter in the future because i will be switching to coaxial (yes yes i kno, more jitter, but what can i do). In regards to jitter correction, i think you got a good ground. I may be buying back my p1a to use with the p3a, it is an EXCELLENT jitter correction unit. But that may be something i do further down the road. I think buying the REV 5.1 card with its coaxial output is going to be first. Also, how do you find that AES/EBU connection? Does it make a big difference?

 

[mbratrud]

Well, I use an AES/EBU cable out of the Big Ben and into My Dac because my whole system is fully differentially balanced right down to the power so I just stuck with it....Coaxial S/PIDF is fine although, again, I believe the quality of the cable will make a difference.

I have been very tempted to try the Empirical Offramp....or maybe even start with the Waveterminal just to try a USB connection out of the G5. It is interesting to me that you feel the Toslink will be the superior form of connection. It thought the idea of the USB out of the G5 enironment got rid of any electrical and mechanical artifacts leaving a bit perfect 44.1 signal. Sure jitter would be introduced when the conversion was made to S/PDIF and more along the cable transmission so a low jitter card and jitter reduction (in my case the Big Ben) is added to deal with it.

Please let me know what you find out!

 

[the terabyte]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhydon You are not going to get the same component build in a USB DAC, be it any USB DAC (that I kno of currently) that has the same quality chips, components, circuits, parts, as a Benchmark, the market just isn’t there yet.

Do you not consider the Apogee Mini-DAC to be of the same quality of the Benchmark, then?