[DanielCox]

I think we also have to remember that among all this argument about measurements, statistics and trial designs that it's up to the believers to prove there is an audible difference - you've stated a claim that runs contrary to any evidence and you have to provide some strong stuff to show any of us we're wrong.

 

[nick_charles]

No paper on blind testing cables has ever been accepted by the AES or similar organization for journal publication, there are several magazine articles and web articles on cables but no peer reviewed proper articles.

Here is a speculative question. There are many large cable manufacturers out there with big budgets why has no such cable manufacturer been able to provide evidence derived from blind tests that their cables are reliably and detectably different from other cables ?

I will speculate some more.

If they tried and nobody was able to detect differences - they lose.

If they try and more than half prefer Brand X - they lose.

The only winning position is to provide a cable that everyone (so to speak) will detect the difference with and also prefer but since audio is so subjective that is difficult to achieve .....unless they can make a cable that is so very different that it is impossible to mistake it for any other ...Such a cable would almost certainly look pathological compared to Brand X that simple tests would show it so...

Has any manufacturer made such a cable, yes ,
Harmonic Technology CyberLight Wave & P2A interconnects a "cable" so technically awful that it beggars belief and would almost certainly be universally identifiable

Stereophile: Harmonic Technology CyberLight Wave & P2A interconnects

 

[sanderx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobMcN /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think any engineer would argue that different metals conduct electricity differently,

Actually, no, all metals (conductors, if you will), conduct electricity exactly the same. Specific conductance (measured in siemens per meter) does vary between materials, but other than that, all conductors conduct electricity the same way. This is a more fundamental point than you seem to understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobMcN /img/forum/go_quote.gif - or that guage plays a role - or that solid vs stranded construction plays a role - or that different dielectrics interact to influence the inductance and capacitance and resistance - or that shielding influences the signal - or that different geometries affect inductance and capacitance and resistance

These all do play a role in setting various parameters of the cable. It is rather unlikely (but possible) that unknown parameters exist. The effect of any such parameters would need to be rather limited however, given existing measurements. In another thread I presented the theoretical maximum differences between an ideal cable of no effect on the signal at all and a very very bad cable ... You should look it up, and consider what the magnitude of the difference implies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobMcN /img/forum/go_quote.gif So why is it so hard to think that different cables can affect the sound differently, unless of course they are constructed identically? Sure, an engineer will also say that regardless of the construction, if they measure identically (within audible tolerances per his/her textbook of electrical properties) there should be no difference. To that I answer, what if even you can hear a difference ... will you still believe that there is none because the textbook says there shouldn't be? (to which he will say he was influenced by the color of the cable or some other such thing, no doubt.) Now a theoretical scientist might postulate that we don't have adequate tools to measure this properly. Sure, we now believe in quantum particles, but we still can't see them. We can only measure them indirectly and draw conclusions based on indirect measurements that are based on theories, whcih may be proven inexact over time. So perhaps the perceived differences in cables need to be understood and measured indirectly, based on an assumption that there is something here that is not clearly understood.

It is not just what some textbook says is or is not different, it is what can be rather easily computed to be essentially no different and also measured to be no different. Worse, it is far below the threshold of thermal noise for common cable lengths. Which is besides the point to what would have happened to the sound in the recording studio passing through rather ordinary cables.

While theories may be proven inexact over time, there are very well established minimum thresholds to the inexactness, much like for special or general relativity. A future theory cannot disprove the already existing measurements as to what a cable does / did not do to a 20KHz signal. If you can describe the effect some cable supposedly has on the quality of sound closely enough, a model can be built based on that and used to check whetever such effects actually exist (or not).

Something rather indicative that differences claimed to exist by "cable believers" don't, is that the specialty audio cables have exactly the same construction regardless of length. For a cable to have exactly the same effect in both a 0.5 m length and 2m length, some combination of its parameters would need to have a 4x difference. This however does not appear to be the case.

 

[Dane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobMcN /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, an engineer will also say that regardless of the construction, if they measure identically (within audible tolerances per his/her textbook of electrical properties) there should be no difference. To that I answer, what if even you can hear a difference ... will you still believe that there is none because the textbook says there shouldn't be? (to which he will say he was influenced by the color of the cable or some other such thing, no doubt.)

The engineer would not be able to perceive color through the faculty of his ears, therefore he cannot possibly be influenced by the color of the cable when comparing the subjective sound of differently colored cables. But maybe it was an audio/visual cable test you had in mind...?

 

[Happy Camper]

How difficult would it be to completely map the harmonics of an instrument separate from the accumulative signal strength of a symphony to determine if there is a difference? Not a 20k signal. It's not always about the peaks and magnitudes. Musicians will tell you their instruments sound different based on the temperature and humidity of an environment.

Our hearing can determine those nuances (assuming live re-production is the goal). When most people go in to do a test, they usually go in with their own material (and on here it's mostly electric music and studio produced, or at least it was with me initially) as they are most familiar with it. You do a rapid change of cables to try and remember what you heard 4 cables ago. What's the chances you could be anywhere near accurate.

Live with the sound until you get used to the detail of the material, the texture of the instruments, the harmonics of the environment. Then go to the next cable sample. If you can't hear that kind of detail, you don't have a system resolving enough to do this. You can't be expected to know how to drive at 200 mph if you don't have a car do it. You won't be able to hear the differences between a violin made by the same maker but in a different year unless you had the experience and teaching to know the differences.

When these guys buy the top end gear, they have this kind of resolution. In these systems, ICs and power conditions are noticeable. If you haven't the reference to compare, you can't know how to determine the differences. If science can't measure everything the way an ear and the body works, keep working on it.

Of course, this is speculative to the skeptic. It's easier and cheaper to buy more music and accept ignorance as the last word. For the believers, they listen to their systems and don't care what the skeptic thinks which makes them holler even louder.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you can't hear that kind of detail, you don't have a system resolving enough to do this. ...You won't be able to hear the differences between a violin made by the same maker but in a different year unless you had the experience and teaching to know the differences. When these guys buy the top end gear, they have this kind of resolution. In these systems, ICs and power conditions are noticeable.

Simple question, can you point to any study that has shown that the abiity to reliably detect differences between cables in blind tests (or any component for that matter) is in any way correlated with the "quality" of the other system components, excluding the crappest kit , i.e excluding anything that would fail DIN 45 500 HiFi standards as set in the 1960s ?

Seriously ?

This "you dont have a resolving enough system" is a tedious old audiophile saw with little empircal support, thrown out routinely.

I have successfully blind tested *small* differences in filters and codecs with a $20 TBAAM feeding a 1972 Nikko amp into AKG K240s, yes the ones with the bloated bass, or heaven forfend some JBL E20s (LOL, I love em but they are objectively awful) how is that possible with such low rent kit ?

Yet, with my somewhat better home setup, Entech DAC, M^3 and Senn HD580s I have been wholly unable to DBT cables , hmm could it be that the magnitude of the differences are so small that they are not humanly detectable ?. Here is a clue, I have measured the differences between cables and with the 7 I tried the differences (average 0.001db to 0.01db) were not humanly audible...

 

[vhbaske]

Folks I have read that some people cannot tell the difference in 24kb and high quality CDs and all that stuff but my ears can detect the QUALITY that is contained in the music. There is more depth, more music content and many things that a SACD has in quality that a non SACD has. However, if your earphones are cheap or your speakers cannot tell the difference, less your ears will percieve them.

 

[Happy Camper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Simple question, can you point to any study that has shown that the abiity to reliably detect differences between cables in blind tests (or any component for that matter) is in any way correlated with the "quality" of the other system components, excluding the crappest kit , i.e excluding anything that would fail DIN 45 500 HiFi standards as set in the 1960s ? Seriously ? This "you dont have a resolving enough system" is a tedious old audiophile saw with little empircal support, thrown out routinely. I have successfully blind tested *small* differences in filters and codecs with a $20 TBAAM feeding a 1972 Nikko amp into AKG K240s, yes the ones with the bloated bass, or heaven forfend some JBL E20s (LOL, I love em but they are objectively awful) how is that possible with such low rent kit ? Yet, with my somewhat better home setup, Entech DAC, M^3 and Senn HD580s I have been wholly unable to DBT cables , hmm could it be that the magnitude of the differences are so small that they are not humanly detectable ?. Here is a clue, I have measured the differences between cables and with the 7 I tried the differences (average 0.001db to 0.01db) were not humanly audible...

Not everything is measured in db magnitude. Is signal duplication in maximum peaks the only way to measure your signal? I measure it by what I hear, not what a scope says.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif No paper on blind testing cables has ever been accepted by the AES or similar organization for journal publication, there are several magazine articles and web articles on cables but no peer reviewed proper articles.

Ya know, I think you're right. I looked and couldn't find any! This is very strange, because there are definitely articles on ABX from Clark, and there is a great review article on double-blind testing of power amps.

But even in the absence of peer-reviewed studies, the available evidence is:
- several well-documented, statistically sound trials performed by reputable individuals (like Nousaine) in respected magazines with very little secondary gain to influence the results
- measurements of cables that show deviations that are extremely unlikely to be audible
- a very well known "placebo effect" phenomenon in which knowledge of cable idenity influences a person's perceptions, which is typically eliminated once the listener is blinded
- virtual absence of data of usable quality that refutes any of the above

Look, I'm a reasonable person. If there could be just one independent, methodologically and statistically sound study that could show reliably show differences among cables, I would absolutely consider buying the more expensive cable assuming the price was fair. If cables TRULY made the large differences that people claim, I have zero doubt that someone would have been able to demonstrate it by now.

P.S. If there are no known measurements that correlate with audible differences in cables, and blind cable comparisons don't yield big differences, then HOW ON EARTH do cable manufacturers research and design their cables to make them sound any different??

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhbaske /img/forum/go_quote.gif Folks I have read that some people cannot tell the difference in 24kb and high quality CDs and all that stuff but my ears can detect the QUALITY that is contained in the music. There is more depth, more music content and many things that a SACD has in quality that a non SACD has. However, if your earphones are cheap or your speakers cannot tell the difference, less your ears will percieve them.

A common criticism of blind listening tests that yield NO differences is that the stereo system had insufficient resolution to detect differences in the cables. However, this critcism has already been addressed in several studies where listeners definitely heard differences when they knew the cable identity, but could not tell cables apart when they didn't - this means that the resolution of the stereo system was NOT a factor (because they could hear differences unblinded). In addition, to further avoid this criticism, some blind listening tests employed very expensive stereo equipment, which nobody could argue was low-resolution.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhbaske /img/forum/go_quote.gif Folks I have read that some people cannot tell the difference in 24kb and high quality CDs and all that stuff but my ears can detect the QUALITY that is contained in the music. There is more depth, more music content and many things that a SACD has in quality that a non SACD has.

Do you understand why you hear a difference? Granted you hear a difference, if you had to explain why there is a difference, what would you say?

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif No paper on blind testing cables has ever been accepted by the AES or similar organization for journal publication, there are several magazine articles and web articles on cables but no peer reviewed proper articles.

While not in the AES, the Computer Music Journal released a study done at MIT and published in 1988 that blind tested cables. The author's commentary is kind of absurd but the methodology is sound. You might have read it before:

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

(requires journal access)

 

[vhbaske]

QUOTE:
Do you understand why you hear a difference? Granted you hear a difference, if you had to explain why there is a difference, what would you say?
EOQ

Well, its difficult to WRITE or EXPLAIN the difference, apart of the simple things I have said. I know it is not ME only, everyone of you can tell this difference I am saying. For cables, I do not hear any difference at all, however, I have never heard thouthand dollar per feet cables.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhbaske /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, its difficult to WRITE or EXPLAIN the difference, apart of the simple things I have said. I know it is not ME only, everyone of you can tell this difference I am saying. For cables, I do not hear any difference at all, however, I have never heard thouthand dollar per feet cables.

Just to be clear, I wasn't asking you to describe the difference. Rather, do you have any theory as to why one sounds better than the other? That would be useful information if it can be verified. And, again, I am not talking about verifying that you hear a difference (or I do or anyone else). Rather, given there is a difference, why is there a difference?

 

[randomasdf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirebottleRon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyone ever think that maybe if you take all the time you spend theorizing about cables making a difference and you used that time to find out for yourself that everyone would be better off? You guys will never have a blanket answer so why even kick it around?

There's the fact that we (or at least myself) don't want to spend money on or go through the trouble of testing something that is, for all realistic purposes, suggested very strongly to be entirely a placebo effect at most. This is pretty well established by science, and if you were to somehow prove that the human ear could notice such small nuances in sound, not only would your discovery be quite extraordinary -- you could also easily win $1,000,000.

I think you have a severe lack of understanding of how the scientific method works as well. You start with evidence and a claim and then from it test the hypothesis and formulate a conclusion. The test doesn't have to work 100% of the time, it just has to be statistically significant. For example, if you could blindfolded identify a certain cables out of a selection of 6 assorted randomly more than 40% of the time over 30 trials, that would be quite interesting and probably result in greater research towards high end cables, no? (You would think that given how rich some of the companies are, Monster Cables for example, that they would sponsor a basic study to prove that cables make an effect rather than asserting empty and hollow statements of how good they are and show their dominance over competitors)

Right now, most of our knowledge in electrical engineering and the human ear suggests that cables do not have an effect. That would mean, since you are making the claim that you cables make a difference, which contradicts our current scientific understanding, the weight of evidence is on your side.