Thread of Basic Questions
Feb 15, 2021 at 3:45 PM Post #91 of 102
I know you're not upset. I'm glad for that. My comment was for the participants at large because it seemed like people were starting to get annoyed. I wanted to nip that in the bud.
To be clear, everybody that has posted here is more than welcome to continue to do so (I'd be a little sad if they felt like they couldn't), but I think they should cool off if things are getting hot.
 
Feb 15, 2021 at 3:51 PM Post #92 of 102
I'm glad that I asked this question and that there's a discussion going on in this thread, but it seems like blood pressures are rising.

If you're getting hot under the collar, please just back off rather than feeding the fire. It's really not that important.
No one's getting overly upset, but to see the amount of work that transpired on misunderstanding whether a basic assumption was applied is astounding.

I hesitated to post anymore when I saw this subject walk over to the sound science area, but felt obligated since I replied to the first question. Somehow, it obviously got corrupted in the assumptions that took place.
 
Feb 15, 2021 at 4:15 PM Post #93 of 102
I think there just is some big miscommunication going on somehow. I don't know the full history and context of all the quotes so maybe I'd better stay out of it.
 
Feb 15, 2021 at 8:41 PM Post #94 of 102
I think there just is some big miscommunication going on somehow. I don't know the full history and context of all the quotes so maybe I'd better stay out of it.
I think I'm not good at explaining myself.

Moreover, the Senns have a pretty big impedance bump around 100Hz. On the HD800, the impedance goes from about 350 ohms at 10Hz, all the way to 650 ohms at 100Hz! It only averages 300 ohms from 20-20kHz. What does that mean? It means that all around the areas of mid-bass, where "warmth" generally comes from, power disappears with many solid-state amps, because they simply can't swing the voltage needed at that high impedance. A typical solid-state amp could be clipping at this point, but it depends on the gain. It might just sound bass-light or tinny.

The Sennheisers sensitivity of 98 dB of 1 mW input holds for one specific frequency (1kHz?).
If at another frequency (you mentioned 100Hz) the impedance is 650 ohm, that doesn't mean that we need 1 mW there to reach the same 98dB, or that we need 1 mW at all there.
At that frequency the same 0.55V will result in less current and less power compared to the situation at 1 kHz.

This is the correct way to look at how the headphone and the amplifier are working together.
If a headphone amplifier can swing some X amount of volts into 350ohms (at 1kHz) it can definitely swing the same X amount of volts into 650ohms (at 100Hz) because that requires less power. If the sensitivity are the same at both of the frequencies, the headphone will have less volume at 100Hz (given the amplitude of the input and the voltage gain are the same at both frequencies). But this isn't because the amplifier wouldn't be able to swing enough voltage, it is because a voltage amplifier would always try to swing the same voltage for a given input and gain regardless of power drawn or headphone volume. There won't be any increase in output voltage that's going to cause the amp to clip.

The point is, you are trying to achieve a volume to the end user and the headphone is the one drawing the power.

That might be what I am trying to achieve but it's not what a voltage amplifier tries to achieve. A voltage amplifier doesn't have any concept of volume or headphone. A voltage amplifier tries to achieve a voltage gain you ask from it. As a consequence if a headphone has the same sensitivity at two different frequencies but differing impedances at these frequencies the gain in volume will not be the same. The voltage gain would be the same though because that is what voltage amplifiers are meant to do. The difference in volume is not the amplifiers fault, it is the headphone's fault and no matter how powerful an amplifier is it won't fix the headphone's problem.

That power is the result of a desired volume - the amount of gain you are citing as an example is superfluous, because it can't be held constant
The job of a voltage amplifier is to keep the ratio of Voltage out / Voltage in constant. Its job isn't to keep the desired volume nor the drawn power constant. The gain of a voltage amplifier is by definition Vout/Vin. Of course that constant can be changed by the volume knob in practice. The gain you are talking about is volume gain which would be hard to keep constant but that would be the job of the headphone and not the amplifier. If the amplifier isn't working correctly (or just used incorrectly) this gain (Vout/Vin) can vary somewhat under different loads (which can be a problem since the headphone usually presents a different load at differing frequencies) but it isn't too hard to find headphone amplifier that works well with a a particular headphone.

By the way, I have some multimeter, oscilloscope and analog inputs on my audio interface. I could measure the input and output voltages (or anything else you think would be useful) of my amplifier loaded with a HD600 at various frequencies if you think that would be any useful. I mean you might care enough to be interested in the result.
 
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Jun 8, 2022 at 11:25 AM Post #95 of 102
Hi all, I have another (hopefully) basic question that I think I already know the answer to: do planar drivers require more power than other driver technologies, even when they have similar impedance, sensitivity, and efficiency?

I assume that the answer is "no."

I often see people claiming that planar headphones and IEMs require more power than dynamic or balanced armature, despite similar specs. I assume that what people are thinking of when making this claim is those older planar headphones (e.g., HiFiMan HE6) that really were very power/current hungry. In fact, I see it so often repeated that I start to doubt myself.

Then again, if everybody said that the moon is made of cheese, I might eventually start believe that too.

By the way, I'm changing the title of this thread so that it's hopefully a little more inviting for other users. Now it's not longer "mega's thread."
 
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Jun 8, 2022 at 4:42 PM Post #96 of 102
I'd go with no.

I also have that idea of a planar being power hungry, but that's because I'm thinking of old pairs with a sensi around 90dB/mW that didn't stop at big voltage gain, but also a good deal of current compared to most TOTL DD stuff that more typically would gravitate in the 300 to 600ohm. The sensi clearly spelled out a need for amps with big balls.
but if we consider transducers with the same sensi and same volume output, then I don't get what hidden power would be consumed by a planar? I guess they'll have different FR so ultimately we won't really listen at the same level outside 1kHz, but that's about as far as I can think to argue and it's kind of lame.
 
Nov 1, 2022 at 6:30 AM Post #98 of 102
I would like to know more about level matching. Let's say I want to compare two or more DAPs. I already have a simple switch box (the Oriolus Raosound).

What else do I need? When googling this topic the information I find is about recording and mixing .

I'm not aiming at scientific validity, I just want to learn the basics.
 
Nov 4, 2022 at 5:21 PM Post #99 of 102
You could connect one end of a jack-to-jack cable to the output of the switch box and the other end to something that can measure the signal. A microphone jack input connected to your computer could measure the signal and then you could use some software to monitor the input and then capture, analyze it. If this isn't quite self explanatory, using a multimeter might be easier, they aren't expensive and I'm pretty sure you have to know at least one guy who has one lying around. I could explain either of these methods in more details but I don't know how much you already know.
 
Nov 6, 2022 at 3:16 AM Post #100 of 102
Thank you for the suggestions. It's much appreciated. I think I can figure out the rest by myself.

The reason I'm asking about this is that not volume matcing when comparing devices is considered a grave sin on the science forum, but finding information about how to actually do it is not that easy.
 
Nov 6, 2022 at 4:38 PM Post #101 of 102
Sorry, I've missed your post.
It's a fact that proper volume matching(within 0.1dB) can be challenging for us random consumers.
With DAPs, there are problems. for example, most DAPs have something like half a dB or even 1dB increments for volume setting, so matching within 0.1dB with that isn't convenient. While finding some value that matches on both DAPs is almost always possible, it also often lands outside of your preferred listening level. I've been very annoyed by that myself and I think at least some listening tests were so far off from how I usually listen to music that the test lost its purpose for me. :crying_cat_face:
On occasion, you'll get small deviations between measuring the voltage unloaded and measuring it with an IEM plugged. I don't think the variation justifies to worry about it in general, but ideally you'd want the DAP loaded(with the IEM in the circuit).

The real challenge with DAPs is that you have different amp sections with different impedance outputs. Depending on the IEM, that will lead to audible change in frequency response. And if the FR is audibly different, which frequency should be matched in amplitude? who knows?
Ideally I'd say you should use a relatively high impedance headphone or a very flat impedance IEM(same impedance at all frequencies within the audible range) to do your test. That way you can rely on almost anything from a multimeter and a test tone, some RTA on a computer if you have a cable with 2 male jacks, or even any app to detect sound levels on your phone(might not be accurate down to 0.1dB!), and of course the IEM/headphone and the "mic" cannot move at all throughout the measurements. not even from the driver shaking from the test signal!

But obviously if you wish to know about sound differences with a specific IEM, then that's what you should use. It's just that you'll have to make some not so objective choices when it comes to volume matching if the signature changes between DAPs because of impedance(something that's also tricky to check by yourself with a multimeter because most multimeter aren't all that reliable at high frequencies(most of the cheap ones are made for electrical household stuff at 50 or 60Hz).

All in all it can be simple or it can be really hard to test DAPs by ear. If you use a switch, there is the horror of trying to time align the signal between DAPs. Try to use a relatively long track so that if you get lucky once, you have some time to do the listening.
Personally I started trying to match stuff by ear with a 2kHz tone, which could get me within less than 0.5dB but not within 0.1dB without serious luck. Bad method! Barely better than nothing.
Then I used a switch, LOD cables(short male-male interconnect cables) and some short cables I made myself with croco plugs. That allowed me to have wiring in the "open" to put my voltmeter or ADC on them while the IEM was in the circuit. I think that's the best solution but then someone very worried about the "night and day" impact of cables would scream after looking at all the extra stuff I had in the path leading to the IEM. ^_^






There is a clear gap between us constantly asking people who make claims about sound differences, if the listening was volume matched(or blind), and how hard it can be to properly volume match gears. There is no denying that. We have no hope or real desire of filling that gap by making everybody an expert researcher(that would be such a buzzkill, even I would change hobby). What we mostly wish is for people to simply make fewer of the claims they cannot back up with evidence(empty claims). The key idea being that "I know what I heard" settles nothing and proves nothing. "Dude trust me" also doesn't help anybody.
Us asking if the listening experience was properly controlled is to point out that the previous post probably didn't deserve to be presented as a known fact.

But if you're genuinely curious, I strongly encourage you to try all sort of controlled testing. There is a lot to learn about experimenting, about sound, and really about ourselves. If only most tests weren't such a PITA...
 
Nov 6, 2022 at 5:30 PM Post #102 of 102
And I'm of the opinion that even level matching by ear to a half a dB with tones is better than nothing. You can get close enough that even if you discern a difference, it's likely too small of a difference to matter when you're listening to music under normal listening conditions. That's good enough to get a lay of the land... close enough for government work. The tighter the controls, the smaller the differences you can discern. But some differences are too small to even matter. Others may disagree (vociferously).
 
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