[Ray Samuels]

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Originally Posted by atx Three years? The sr71 has barely been out a year, and the Supermacro-3 just came out. There's no data at all to suggest that any of these gears will last 3 years. Here's hoping that $400 investment lasts at least 3 years. Do you think Xin or Ray will publish their repair rate? i.e. how many percentage of their amps come back for service? I highly doubt it.

ATX....None of the Emmeline amps have come for service yet, They have come back for changing the gain which all were done free of charge parts & labor. Those amps offered for an up grade for a better performance were also done free of charge for both parts & labor. I do not have a set charge for repair, as none of that has been in need. An XP-7 was dropped down on hard surface that caused the volume control shaft to bend & get stock, it was repaired free of charge parts & labor. I could have charged the person 25.00 dollars for the pot + one hour labor, but did not, these are facts & not an advertisment to Emmeline products.
Ray Samuels

 

[atx]

Quote:

ATX....None of the Emmeline amps have come for service yet, They have come back for changing the gain which all were done free of charge parts & labor

Ray,

As I have the sr71 your response is greatly appreciated and the perfect record so far puts my mind more at ease. Thanks!

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels ATX....None of the Emmeline amps have come for service yet,

To give you an idea of Ray's customer care, when I bought my amp second hand, he got in touch with me and offered to not only give it a complete check-over to make sure it was in perfect condition, but gave me a full warranty on the unit. I don't think you'll get that type of service from HeadRoom anytime soon. This is a person who builds amplifers because he loves it and unless he gets hit by a bus I wouldn't worry about service from him. (And knowing Ray, I'm not sure the bus would take him out, I think he'd be too fast/tough for it!).

 

[aseltzer144]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels .None of the Emmeline amps have come for service yet... Ray Samuels

This well typifies what you get when you do support the products from the "small guys". While each individual designer are free to set their own policies on service and support, I think Ray's response is more representative of what you will find amongst the smaller manufacturers, indicative of a sense of pride and dedication to customer satisfaction that may be less common amongst the big guys. Sure, most manufacturers cover the overt failures during a predetermined warranty period, but ensuring a resold product is up to spec or repairing a dropped unit (which is not a covered warranty issue under most policies) is an attention to detail one only finds in an individualized, small business. I don't yet own a product of Ray's but I have two portable amps which also come with similar dedication to my ownership satisfaction. Yes there is some inherent risk that the small guy may not always be there, but it pales in comparison to the support you get from the majority of upstanding manufacturers.

 

[rickcr42]

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Amp builders who take payment through paypal has no incentive to pay taxes, and I doubt they do.

the thing about loot and especially electronic transactions is there is a trail.A history that can be recreated and printed out.
Make enough and you better start looking over your shoulder or hire a good tax lawyer.Maybe even a good criminal attorney....

 

[rickcr42]

My own statement :

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that is why if I purchase audio equipment rather than make it I will only deal with a reputable manufacturer who i know will still be around in ten years and that if anything should go wrong or upgrades are available I will not be caught out.There is a bit of peace of mind going on when dealing with a company that not only has a history but a future.

aseltzer144 ;

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This well typifies what you get when you do support the products from the "small guys".

I don't consider Ray one of the little guys.I consider the guys doing builds on their kitchen table or in their basement with no responsibility to anyone to be the little guys.
Ray has been around far longer than most know and it is only the recent notice of his headphone amps that folks here take notice of.
Do some research and background and you will find reviews of Ray's phono stages and line stages going way back before there was a Head-fi even being thought of.

THAT is history and he obviously has a future.I don't see Ray getting bored with making headphone amps and moving on leaving all his customers hanging unlike some have.

 

[rickcr42]

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Yes there is some inherent risk that the small guy may not always be there, but it pales in comparison to the support you get from the majority of upstanding manufacturers.

The "upstanding manufacturers" you reference are mass production manufacturers.They are in it for the bottom line and must build product at a rate that will fill the shelves of all their dealers and this means big factory,big shipping department,big everything excaept cunstomer relations.

True high end has always been a low production thing and the new way of internet commerce which cuts out the middle man means you can make a superior device for the same amount of cash as the mass producer becasue there is no "cut" or markup so that everyone in the loop can get their slice of the pie.
Rays amps for example could not sell without comprimising the parts quality at the same price without a few things changing.

1-he was willing to job out the actual build offshore

2-he took a much smaller part of the profit so the dealer could have his normal cut

3-the parts quality went down and more generic parts used

The large manufacturers use all the above shortcuts added to volume sales to get their profit.The mid level high end dealer can offer a better product and a more personal touch.the bottom feeders who have no stake in anything you take yoyr chances and either you luck out or you don't.

As in most things in life you get what you pay for and most times if something looks too good to be true it probably is.
Each must decide what is important to them.Saving a couple of bucks then crying about it later, and we have had many such threads here at head-fi (Awahhhh ! My amp don't work and the person will not answer my emails ! Awahhh !) or buying from someone with a stake in being around tomorrow.

 

[Ray Samuels]

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Amp builders who take payment through paypal has no incentive to pay taxes, and I doubt they do.

It is sad indeed to have that kind of openion regarding many manufacturers. They might or they might not declair thier incomes, but sooner or later it will come back to bite them in the rear end. I do take pay-pal, as many head-fiers use this method to transfer the money, but when pages of pay-pal history gets to be as thick as a book, you better declair every penny you made, this is not a jock, we are not selling something used out of our garage on e-bay to get few dollars. I had to print all the pages of my pay-pal account for the whole year & take it with me to the accountant to do my taxes.
Ray Samuels

 

[aseltzer144]

Quote:

I don't consider Ray one of the little guys.I consider the guys doing builds on their kitchen table or in their basement with no responsibility to anyone to be the little guys. Ray has been around far longer than most know and it is only the recent notice of his headphone amps that folks here take notice of. Do some research and background and you will find reviews of Ray's phono stages and line stages going way back before there was a Head-fi even being thought of... he obviously has a future.I don't see Ray getting bored with making headphone amps and moving on leaving all his customers hanging unlike some have.

In my definition, "small guys" was intended as a reference to smaller business owners as distinguished from mass market manufacturers. In that sense, a sizable portion of the audio high end is served by small guys. This was not meant as a term to diminish anyone's stature, product offerings, or accomplishments in the field. As a smaller business owner, one is empowered to offer direct and supportive customer contact not generally possible as an engineer working in the technical division of a corporation, isolated from the end customer by additional layers of marketers and management. It is this more self determining small business person who I refer to as the "small guy".

You misread my statement:
Yes there is some inherent risk that the small guy may not always be there, but it pales in comparison to the support you get from the majority of upstanding manufacturers.


The upstanding manufacturers I was referring to are the small builders, using the definition above, who build quality products and stand behind them. I was suggesting that its worth investing in their product even though their future may be more uncertain than that of a mass marketer. Essentially, I think we're agreeing on the same point.

As far as the kitchen builder, I understand your cautious skepticism. However, who's to say who's in business with integrity versus who's in it for an insincere buck. Anyone trying to start a upstanding business at some point needs someone to take a leap of faith and patronize them. That's why so many in this group of "smaller guys" often bend over backwards in the name of customer service.

On the other hand, when I don't sense a commitment to service, I don't give this builder a second thought. When I was considering amps recently I contacted several vendors. One failed to respond to my basic questions, sent in two separate emails. Despite a professional looking web site, this lack of responsiveness led me to label this builder as, in your terms, a kitchen builder. I lost confidence in the integrity of his product and certainly in his after-the-sale service.

For those willing to be committed to their product and prospective customer, I say they are worthy of consideration regardless of where they are able to build their product. Some contact with such a builder is critical to making this determination. Personally, if I can get a positive sense for a builder's integrity, I have no problem buying his product and helping to develop his currently small business.

 

[rickcr42]

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As far as the kitchen builder, I understand your cautious skepticism. However, who's to say who's in business with integrity versus who's in it for an insincere buck.

My yarstick is using here at head-fi as an example anyone who is too cheap to at the minimum pay for sponsership if big enough take out a mall ad if a small operation but persists in getting free advertising and shilling is not trustworthy enough to even consider for my dollar.

too cheap to pay the piper and play fair while dircectly competing with those who do but willing to take your loot is not a good recommendation from my veiwpoint

 

[atx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Samuels Quote: Amp builders who take payment through paypal has no incentive to pay taxes, and I doubt they do. It is sad indeed to have that kind of openion regarding many manufacturers. They might or they might not declair thier incomes, but sooner or later it will come back to bite them in the rear end.

I'm just saying that between a real credit card and paypal, there's no reason for a user to choose paypal over a credit card. A credit card provides more protection, and you don't get charged upfront to buy an amp that ships 4 weeks later.

So why do merchants avoid getting a real merchant account and use paypal to receive payment instead? Obviously the merchant is doing this for his benefit, not to the benefit of the buyer. One of those "benefits" may be avoiding taxes if the incoming revenue isn't all that eye-catching. Whether or not he will get away with it is a different question.

 

[rickcr42]

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So why do merchants avoid getting a real merchant account and use paypal to receive payment instead?

I deal with a legit company for a specific part available no where else on the planet and they use Pay Pal for online transactions for those not having an account with the company (me).
This "merchant" has been around for forty years or so and hardly fly by night or trying to weasle out of paying their share of taxes so not an accurate measure of who is or is not an honest dealer of goods.

Pay Pal is what many want so it is what they get.If Pay Pal were NOT used I can see the "how come there is no Pay Pal option" thread.As I have in the past and most likely will in future for those silly enough to not offer the option.

It is the entirety of business operation and dealings that separates those serious and those in it for a quick buck and answering to no one.

Do a search here at head-fi and you will find many examples of amp buyers being shafted because they tried to shave a couple of dollars from their amp budget.One thing you will NOT find in such a search is all the times the moderaors were contacted to deal with a situation where the buyer felt ripped off and our response is and always must be

"you made the decision now live with it.We can not and will not be responsible for any purchasing decisions made by you and have no control over the person to person dealings of our members and any persons they purchase goods from"

do your homework,weigh the odds,check the history if there is one and get the crystal ball out and attempt to determine if this is a company that will be around and doing business in six months or a year from now.Do they pay their way or do they make up their own rules as they go.
This last goes to if someone is honorable and above board or just out for a quick buck and will answer to no one.The market is only so large and the competition great but most bargains are not always what they seem all things considered.

 

[atx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 I deal with a legit company for a specific part available no where else on the planet and they use Pay Pal for online transactions for those not having an account with the company (me). This "merchant" has been around for forty years or so and hardly fly by night or trying to weasle out of paying their share of taxes so not an accurate measure of who is or is not an honest dealer of goods.

What I said implies: a non-legit company or one who tries to avoid paying taxes would probably use paypal. That does not make the reverse true.
i.e. If A --> B is true, that does not make B --> A true as well.

That said, just because a company has been running for 40 years it doesn't mean that they pay their taxes honestly and fully. Maybe they haven't gotten caught and you don't know about it yet. Anyway, I still wonder why people would want to use paypal over a credit card, given a choice.

 

[rickcr42]

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Anyway, I still wonder why people would want to use paypal over a credit card, given a choice

As I said previously.It is called "give them what they want" and if you do a search you will find many "how come so and so will not take pay pal" threads.Only a fool would not include the preferred payment method but think what you want man.you like anyone else are entitled to your opinion and if you truly beleive those using pay pal have something to hide i suggest you take 85 % of the online vendors off your list of trusted sites.

As always an opinion and only my opinion

 

[calaf]

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Originally Posted by gpalmer I don't think you'll get that type of service from HeadRoom anytime soon.

have you ever owned any Headroom gear? The way they stand by their amps and the level of service they provide is amazing!
The very first head-amp I bought was an old Airhead (the one with two AA cells). Somehow my RatShack power supply blew it (reversed polarity? I don't know...). I sent it back to see if it was worth repairing and they sent me back a newer (refurb) *Total* Airhead, no question asked, no charges.
What they did when I had trouble with my second Headroom amp (an even older 1996 Supreme) was simply incredible. Since they asked me to keep it "confidential", I will, but I can assure you, I will buy Headroom gear confidently for the rest of my life!