[purrin]

  So other than that one error, do you folks agree with that assessment?  That seems line up more with my understanding of the device vs the Wyrd.  
 
I'm not trying to trash the Wyrd, I'm trying to understand if spending an extra $50 on the U12 will offer any actual benefit other than additional output formats.  Or in the other direction, if the Wyrd is actually doing more for less (assuming your DAC has a USB input).

 
It depends. Sodaboy made an assumption that I said it was worse. I actually said "not be better or worse than stock USB implementation on DACs".
 
I'd say the Gustard is more likely a waste of money if you have something modern like the X-Sabre, PWD2, M51, NFB-7.32, etc. all those DACs have good USB implementations and need a top notch USB converter to beat the built-in one. Newer DACs like Vega or Yggy have excellent USB implementations where I felt even the use of a TOTL USB converter like OR5 or Berzerkly Alpha were slightly worse (again, this also depends upon your USB source - laptop USB out tends to suck.)
 
In general, I felt the Gustard was on the lower end of the chain of converters - at least with SPDIF. The order of things: Gustard < Ciuinas < OR5. The caveat is i2s, but there are only a handful of DACs that utilize i2s, and there is no standard for the pin outs (can you say kaboom or zapp!) Other converters are also offering i2s. There's the AGD USB converter now as another solution with i2s. I have not heard it though and I have my doubts because of that craptastic VIA chip. Keep in mind i2s but itself is no magic bullet. The implementation must actually sound good to begin with to take full potential of i2s. In other words, don't worry about i2s if you have to ask since the DAC you buy will probably 99% not have i2s or will explode 66% if you connect the i2s cables wrong pins. People who do i2s usually know exactly what they are doing - asking the manufacturers for pin-outs and even testing the pins themselves, and capable of making their own cables.
 
Finally, don't get fooled by parts specs. Lots of stuff sounds good on paper, but sounds craptastic (iBasso cough cough cough). It annoys the bejezus outta me when people do that. "The tranfo is inside the case of the Mustard, hence magnetic field mucking with the clocks." neener, neener, neener. "well it's encapsulated" neener, neener, "yeah with plastic" neener, neener. "Well the Mustard's regulation circuit sucks" neener, neener, "Well the USB power - Galvatron isolated it" neener, neener, "Well there's no such thing because one leg of the power ties back to ground in US electrical wiring" neener, neener, "Well Optimus Prime said so", etc. Lame arguments and lamer counter arguments about specs and implementation can go on and on. Proof is in listening and trying different combinations.
 
Now if you get a DAC with no USB input, and you want computer audio, obviously the Gustard would be a good value based choice.
 
If you get a fairly modern DAC with USB built-in, try the built-in USB out first. At this point in the game, if it works and sounds good, probably no need to waste another $200 for an unknown. Don't put the cart before the horse, especially if you are starting out and wanting to try out new DACs. USB has come a long long way with some of the newer chips. I actually feel the CMedia 6632A or even 6631A can compete with or exceed XMOS. XMOS seems to work really well with Sabre DACs though. But anyways what I am saying is that USB converters are like aftermarket intakes for cars. The majority of them don't do jack **** for most modern cars, or give you gains of 2hp.
 

I use both in my system. In my case, the Wyrd clears the power for the U12, which clears it further. I like both but I think in terms of pure value for money U12 > Wyrd. But I like having both 

 
That's a good way to think about it. They are not mutually exclusive products.

 

[negura]

Also posting this information here, since there is a lot of Theta DAC talk:
 
Be warned of using any Audio GD amplification with the Theta. The Audio GD practice on all their amplification is to short input pins to the ground if the amplifier is powered off or if the input is unused. They do not state this anywhere - I had to find this info via measurements on my own post-factum, and then Audio GD confirmed it. This practice bears a high risk for damaging the output stage in the Theta. I know this from first hand experience. I wonder if I was very unlucky and if anyone tried Audio GD gear on the Theta and got away with it. But the manual warning is very clear to me.
 
From the Theta manual:
" Whenever making connections to the Generation V, it is very important to power off the Generation V by removing the AC power cord from the wall socket. This will prevent any chance of shorting the analog outputs to ground which will cause damage to the Generation V. "

 

[n-a]

Hi Negura.
 
I did use my Theta Gen V-a with my Audio-gd Precision 2 without problems.
I powered up the source, amp, dac in random order.
I am no EE but isnt the amplifier closed circuit? So the signal goes from + to - ?
The switches in V goes easily from off to on, and the power supply is allways on, so there is potential risk to shorting.
I pulled the AC cord off when i changed the gear etc. 
 
But the manual/dac back plate clearly says not to use in unearthed sockets. But you live in UK so that isnt problem...
Well, i don't know if that helps, its just my 0.02€
 
Best regards,
n-a

 

[simomat]

I don't think anyone on this thread mentioned the AMR DP-777 dac. I own one and it's very natural sounding. I wonder how the AMR stacks up against some of the dacs that have been talked about here (Yggdrasil, Theta Digital, Analog dac, Luxman DA-06 and other).

 

[ciphercomplete]

Purrin, I recall you saying that the Wyrd did not make a difference when you used it with the Yggy.  Is this because that tech is already built into it?  I still rather like the idea of having the wyrd inbetween the two as a extra layer against noise.
 
 
Also for folks skeptical about the Wyrd's wall wart.  I bought one of these to power my media server and external harddrive http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Fanless-Linear-Power-Supply-for-PC-Audio-and-CE-device.html  I use the leftover 5v output to power the Wyrd but I notice no difference in performance when doing so. 

 

[Stillhart]

   
snip
 
If you get a fairly modern DAC with USB built-in, try the built-in USB out first. At this point in the game, if it works and sounds good, probably no need to waste another $200 for an unknown. Don't put the cart before the horse, especially if you are starting out and wanting to try out new DACs. USB has come a long long way with some of the newer chips. I actually feel the CMedia 6632A or even 6631A can compete with or exceed XMOS. XMOS seems to work really well with Sabre DACs though. But anyways what I am saying is that USB converters are like aftermarket intakes for cars. The majority of them don't do jack **** for most modern cars, or give you gains of 2hp.
 
snip

 
Thanks for the super detailed response!  My NFB-28 uses a VIA VT1731 USB chip.  I believe you called it "craptastic".  In that case, do you think a USB converter would be beneficial?  (Yes yes, the best way to know for sure is to try it.)
 
Honestly, I'm rather happy with my NFB-28 right now.  I feel like I'd need to spend a good chunk more money to get a notable upgrade at this point.  But if a USB power thingy like the Wyrd or the U12 might help for cheap, I wouldn't kick it out of bed...

 

[Clemmaster]

   
Thanks for the super detailed response!  My NFB-28 uses a VIA VT1731 USB chip.  I believe you called it "craptastic".  In that case, do you think a USB converter would be beneficial?  (Yes yes, the best way to know for sure is to try it.)
 
Honestly, I'm rather happy with my NFB-28 right now.  I feel like I'd need to spend a good chunk more money to get a notable upgrade at this point.  But if a USB power thingy like the Wyrd or the U12 might help for cheap, I wouldn't kick it out of bed...

 
You'd better get a Wyrd to improve the USB input. If you don't mind the awful Audio-GD drivers (when it's working, it's working...), the VIA and Sabre DACs usually work great.

 

[purrin]

I'm tending to go with Clem based on my own experience with the AGD Sabre DACs and the VIA USB chips. The VIA USB / Sabre D-A implementations with AG-D seemed pretty darn solid, only bested by the mega buck Off-Ramp 5, and even then, the difference was incremental. So doubtful Custard would make a impact. Always fun to experiment though if you have money to blow. I won't discourage that. 
 
But give Wyrd a try (again, it's not mutually exclusive). You can easily return Wyrd for a refund. Tell you what, I'll bring the Wyrd to CanJam. Find me at my table.

 

[Clemmaster]

One thing to know with the Wyrd and Windows: you will have to re-install the drivers with the Wyrd.
I don't know why that is, but I could never have the drivers work again without the Wyrd later on... These drivers are really bad... 

 

[hans030390]

   
Thanks for the super detailed response!  My NFB-28 uses a VIA VT1731 USB chip.  I believe you called it "craptastic".  In that case, do you think a USB converter would be beneficial?  (Yes yes, the best way to know for sure is to try it.)
 
Honestly, I'm rather happy with my NFB-28 right now.  I feel like I'd need to spend a good chunk more money to get a notable upgrade at this point.  But if a USB power thingy like the Wyrd or the U12 might help for cheap, I wouldn't kick it out of bed...

 
You're in a situation where it's probably hard to say whether you'd get better sound with a Wyrd -> USB or going U12 -> SPDIF, given I've read some "meh" comments on Audio-GD's USB implementations. And the U12 is a budget product after all. My guess is if it's a newer DAC with one of the new USB implementations (I don't keep up with AGD stuff well enough to know), you'd probably be best served with a Wyrd and will save some money as well. If the USB implementation really isn't that good, then, well, even the budget U12 may be an improvement. I've heard some say XMOS is smoother sounding than some other offerings, so it may well with with the Sabre chip.
 
I only initially got the U12 as a cheap experiment to see how it would impact that sound of a DAC I was using at the time. Now I just use it because my JKSPDIF Mk3 has horrible drivers and is a PITA to work or crashes my computer. Saving up slowly for a nicer converter down the road since I don't have DACs with a USB input themselves.

 

[Stillhart]

  I'm tending to go with Clem based on my own experience with the AGD Sabre DACs and the VIA USB chips. The VIA USB / Sabre D-A implementations with AG-D seemed pretty darn solid, only bested by the mega buck Off-Ramp 5, and even then, the difference was incremental. So doubtful Custard would make a impact. Always fun to experiment though if you have money to blow. I won't discourage that. 
 
But give Wyrd a try (again, it's not mutually exclusive). You can easily return Wyrd for a refund. Tell you what, I'll bring the Wyrd to CanJam. Find me at my table.

 
Thanks, if I don't have one by then it should be beneficial.  I do plan on bringing my NFB-28 just because I'm driving down so why not.  Maybe I'll be able to borrow someone's to take back to the hotel room and test.
 

   
You're in a situation where it's probably hard to say whether you'd get better sound with a Wyrd -> USB or going U12 -> SPDIF, given I've read some "meh" comments on Audio-GD's USB implementations. And the U12 is a budget product after all. My guess is if it's a newer DAC with one of the new USB implementations (I don't keep up with AGD stuff well enough to know), you'd probably be best served with a Wyrd and will save some money as well. If the USB implementation really isn't that good, then, well, even the budget U12 may be an improvement. I've heard some say XMOS is smoother sounding than some other offerings, so it may well with with the Sabre chip.
 
I only initially got the U12 as a cheap experiment to see how it would impact that sound of a DAC I was using at the time. Now I just use it because my JKSPDIF Mk3 has horrible drivers and is a PITA to work or crashes my computer. Saving up slowly for a nicer converter down the road since I don't have DACs with a USB input themselves.

 
Thanks.  The NFB-28 is a 2014 model so relatively new.  I was thinking of trying a Wyrd off Amazon; it's a little more than direct from Schiit with shipping, but if I decide to return, the lack of restocking fee makes it cheaper.  
 
We'll see, I guess.  I'm in no rush to experiment so maybe I'll just wait for Canjam.  Heck, maybe Schiit will have some for sale there with no shipping fees (a guy can dream, right?).  

 

[jexby]

   
We'll see, I guess.  I'm in no rush to experiment so maybe I'll just wait for Canjam.  Heck, maybe Schiit will have some for sale there with no shipping fees (a guy can dream, right?).  

 
FYI:
Schiit doesn't sell at RMAF Canjam.  suspect they won't at the March event either.
although good for your if they change this for attendees!

 

[mcduman]

  Also posting this information here, since there is a lot of Theta DAC talk:
 
Be warned of using any Audio GD amplification with the Theta. The Audio GD practice on all their amplification is to short input pins to the ground if the amplifier is powered off or if the input is unused. They do not state this anywhere - I had to find this info via measurements on my own post-factum, and then Audio GD confirmed it. This practice bears a high risk for damaging the output stage in the Theta. I know this from first hand experience. I wonder if I was very unlucky and if anyone tried Audio GD gear on the Theta and got away with it. But the manual warning is very clear to me.
 
From the Theta manual:
" Whenever making connections to the Generation V, it is very important to power off the Generation V by removing the AC power cord from the wall socket. This will prevent any chance of shorting the analog outputs to ground which will cause damage to the Generation V. "

 
i spotted a theta gen V but the owner warned me there were additional known problems with the 230v european models and even theta acknowledged  it at the time. though he was not sure what it was. anyone in the know has any further details?

 

[negura]

That may be a different point - there are several used Thetas that went around for sale in Europe and I've not seen/heard any negative feedback. What this could be is that some European countries allow for plugs that have no grounding, which I understand is a no-no. But that's common sense for many devices.
 
What I am raising as warning, is not about a problem with some European models. It's about poor practice used by Audio GD, to short the inputs when not used, as confirmed by two engineering sources I trust. It seems Theta designs, but there may be other sources out there in the same situation, are not protected for when this engineering practice is used upstream. 
 
I wanted to warn folks about the risks getting their DACs fried.

 

[Articnoise]

  That may be a different point - there are several used Thetas that went around for sale in Europe and I've not seen/heard any negative feedback. What this could be is that some European countries allow for plugs that have no grounding, which I understand is a no-no. But that's common sense for many devices.
 
What I am raising as warning, is not about a problem with some European models. It's about poor practice used by Audio GD, to short the inputs when not used, as confirmed by two engineering sources I trust. In seems Theta designs, but there may other sources out there in the same situation, are not protected for when this engineering practice is used upstream. 

 

If I remember right it stood something on the page about HE9 or was it on the HE7 that it didn’t used mute … (something) because it will degenerate the sound. Is that’s the problem or is it something different that will affect all AGD amps?

Btw all HE products are gone on their English homepage so I can’t look it up now.