[BackToAnalogue]

No, only 25% :>)

 

[Armaegis]

Double wrong. It's 17.6%
 
C'mon guys, we all know that audio only works in the log scale, so clearly log(24/16)=0.176
 
 
... ya buncha amateurs

 

[wink]

Yeah, but subjectively it's more like 534%...
 
i.e. chalk and cheese difference, night and day,, comparing Stax SR-009 to apple i-buds, etc, etc, ad hoc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum....

 

[Chris J]

Yeah, but subjectively it's more like 534%...

i.e. chalk and cheese difference, night and day,, comparing Stax SR-009 to apple i-buds, etc, etc, ad hoc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum....

Yep.
534% is a reasonable approximation, if you only want to take into account the first order effects.

Mathematical proof to follow shortly.........:wink_face:

 

[StefanJK]

Yep.
534% is a reasonable approximation, if you only want to take into account the first order effects.

Mathematical proof to follow shortly.........:wink_face:

We're doing small sample asymptotics with non-converging series here. Has to be true.

 

[boatheelmusic]

You are talking about music reproduction, right?
 
Sounds like a Dr. evo science project!

 

[estreeter]

   
IMO a computer is a horrible source or even transport period. It's just not made for that purpose in mind (laptops are even worse yet). In a typical pc, you've got the cpu and gpu emitting frequencies in the ghz with no shielding in sight. The wiring going to the front panel usb port is horrible with minimal shielding. If you're using the onboard audio digital output then that's even worse since that's on the same exact board that everything else emitting noise is on (the motherboard). The power supply is inadequate for audio as the power for everything in the computer comes from one source, again no shielding in sight. Music servers are a bit better but still share some of the same problems regarding shielding and frequency emissions. In a cd player, there is no cpu or gpu contaminating everything in sight nor are there any components for wi-fi or lan. So it's fairly easy to see why a mid-fi cd player will destroy a typical pc, workstation, or even a music server. I think one should only expect so much when using a typical pc/workstation/music server for audio.

 
Is this the part where someone tells me my SACD players arent comparable with your 1K CDPs because they were designed for a different silver disc ? Both do an excellent job as transports, but I suspect that you'll tell me there are better options out there - I'm all ears. 
 
http://www.marantz.co.uk/uk/products/pages/productdetails.aspx?catid=hifi&subcatid=sacdcdplayer&productid=sa14s1
 
http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/ecommerce/product/BDP-105D.aspx
 
I'm willing to accept that paying more money does not guarantee you a better result, but both cost considerably more than 1K USD retail. I bristle at the 'mid-fi' tag but that's where Marantz gear seems to get lumped by folk with considerably more expensive gear, so I'll live with it. There's a point to this, but I dont want to shoot my mouth off till you've revealed your 1K candidates. That's 1K USD retail - I'll accept an internet special, but not a modded unit. I look forward to your response. 

 

[BackToAnalogue]

You are talking about music reproduction, right?


 


Sounds like a Dr. evo science project!

 


We haven't even started yet. Watch and enjoy:}

 

[smitty1110]

   
IMO a computer is a horrible source or even transport period. It's just not made for that purpose in mind (laptops are even worse yet). In a typical pc, you've got the cpu and gpu emitting frequencies in the ghz with no shielding in sight. The wiring going to the front panel usb port is horrible with minimal shielding. If you're using the onboard audio digital output then that's even worse since that's on the same exact board that everything else emitting noise is on (the motherboard). The power supply is inadequate for audio as the power for everything in the computer comes from one source, again no shielding in sight. Music servers are a bit better but still share some of the same problems regarding shielding and frequency emissions. In a cd player, there is no cpu or gpu contaminating everything in sight nor are there any components for wi-fi or lan. So it's fairly easy to see why a mid-fi cd player will destroy a typical pc, workstation, or even a music server. I think one should only expect so much when using a typical pc/workstation/music server for audio.

Why would HF noise on the usb data lines be a problem? It's all lower than the threshold of what the chipset's looking for, it's not flipping bits or something. Unless your dac is USB powered there's no problems. The only reason that you have problems is if you have a stressed PSU, or a really bad disc drive, both of which are easily fixed. You can get a TotL SATA disc drive for $200 (if you engage in some really sketchy rounding), and a great PSU for $600. That PSU will provide 1500W, so now it will barely purr when just playing music, and probably be at half power when my system is running at max output (and I game at 4k with my rig, so I've got a very nice graphics card, uses almost half of my system's power). Though if either of these components needed upgrading it would be super obvious with really ****ty audio, with all sorts of gaps, skips, etc.
 
What were the specs of the computer that was so poor that you formed your extremely negative opinion of computer? Surely one of the two things I mentioned was a problem, otherwise I just can't see how you came to your conclusions.

 

[computerparts]

   
Is this the part where someone tells me my SACD players arent comparable with your 1K CDPs because they were designed for a different silver disc ? Both do an excellent job as transports, but I suspect that you'll tell me there are better options out there - I'm all ears. 
 
http://www.marantz.co.uk/uk/products/pages/productdetails.aspx?catid=hifi&subcatid=sacdcdplayer&productid=sa14s1
 
http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/ecommerce/product/BDP-105D.aspx
 
I'm willing to accept that paying more money does not guarantee you a better result, but both cost considerably more than 1K USD retail. I bristle at the 'mid-fi' tag but that's where Marantz gear seems to get lumped by folk with considerably more expensive gear, so I'll live with it. There's a point to this, but I dont want to shoot my mouth off till you've revealed your 1K candidates. That's 1K USD retail - I'll accept an internet special, but not a modded unit. I look forward to your response. 

 
Your post is confusing. Where did I mention anything about SACD? That is not what I'm talking about here.
 

  Why would HF noise on the usb data lines be a problem? It's all lower than the threshold of what the chipset's looking for, it's not flipping bits or something. Unless your dac is USB powered there's no problems. The only reason that you have problems is if you have a stressed PSU, or a really bad disc drive, both of which are easily fixed. You can get a TotL SATA disc drive for $200 (if you engage in some really sketchy rounding), and a great PSU for $600. That PSU will provide 1500W, so now it will barely purr when just playing music, and probably be at half power when my system is running at max output (and I game at 4k with my rig, so I've got a very nice graphics card, uses almost half of my system's power). Though if either of these components needed upgrading it would be super obvious with really ****ty audio, with all sorts of gaps, skips, etc.
 
What were the specs of the computer that was so poor that you formed your extremely negative opinion of computer? Surely one of the two things I mentioned was a problem, otherwise I just can't see how you came to your conclusions.

 
Computers aren't made for the sole purpose of reproducing music, that is a fact. They are a rat's nest of noise. It has always been my opinion that a mid-fi cd player will sound better than a typical pc used as a source. If you're happy with using a typical pc as a source then more power to you. But for the price of that $200 sata drive + $600 psu alone, you can get some very good vintage equipment that will blow that pc away. Factor in the cost of the rest of that pc and it's no contest IMO.

 

[sandab]

  Why would HF noise on the usb data lines be a problem?

Because HF noise is very pervasive and insanely difficult to get rid of.  It gets onto the enclosure, the ground plane, the power rails, the transformer, cable shielding, even out the AC cord. If you touch the enclosure it becomes part of you.  It just needs to get to the base of an emitter follower, and now it's part of the signal and IMD and other audible distortion will appear as the HF is outside the linearity bandwidth of bipolar transistors.  It can even cause transistor instability.  It's not necessarily a HUGE problem, but it also can't just be idly dismissed.

 

[BackToAnalogue]

 

  Why would HF noise on the usb data lines be a problem?

Because HF noise is very pervasive and insanely difficult to get rid of.  It gets onto the enclosure, the ground plane, the power rails, the transformer, cable shielding, even out the AC cord. If you touch the enclosure it becomes part of you.  It just needs to get to the base of an emitter follower, and now it's part of the signal and IMD and other audible distortion will appear as the HF is outside the linearity bandwidth of bipolar transistors.  It can even cause transistor instability.  It's not necessarily a HUGE problem, but it also can't just be idly dismissed.

Well if it helps you sleep easier, and it does me, then use a USB 3.0 port (much faster) and stick a separately powered USB 3.0 hub ( $25 ) in between the PC and the DAC.
 
Simples, job's a good 'un.
 
Happy Xmas, love and peace to you all in 2015

 

[estreeter]

computerparts, all I need is for you to accept that either of my SACD players is at least as good a transport as your (still unnamed) 1K CDP and we can take it from there. In this corner, I have a stock 2014 Macbook Pro running JRMC19 and serving nothing more complex than Redbook and some (genuine) 24/96 downloads of the Ludwig remaster of Springsteen's first 7 albums. I also have the CD boxed set of same and I've played all of them thru the Marantz and the Oppo - I suspect that you arent going to like my conclusions, but we're talking same DAC, same cables and same stock power cords. It's one of the big pluses of having both coaxial in and coaxial out on a player, and I think you'll struggle to find that on a 1K player, but I'm always happy to hear otherwise.
 
Still confused ? Let's start with the music, shall we ?
 
http://tinyurl.com/ksbtjde

 

[fzman]

  computerparts, all I need is for you to accept that either of my SACD players is at least as good a transport as your (still unnamed) 1K CDP and we can take it from there. In this corner, I have a stock 2014 Macbook Pro running JRMC19 and serving nothing more complex than Redbook and some (genuine) 24/96 downloads of the Ludwig remaster of Springsteen's first 7 albums. I also have the CD boxed set of same and I've played all of them thru the Marantz and the Oppo - I suspect that you arent going to like my conclusions, but we're talking same DAC, same cables and same stock power cords. It's one of the big pluses of having both coaxial in and coaxial out on a player, and I think you'll struggle to find that on a 1K player, but I'm always happy to hear otherwise.
 
Still confused ? Let's start with the music, shall we ?
 
http://tinyurl.com/ksbtjde

 
Now I'm a bit confused,....   are you saying your spinners are better than the laptop setup?  I'm not criticising- just asking.  As far as the other comparison, it's just the old chestnut that, all things equal, used gear costs less than new gear.  I'd venture to say that a really top-shelf transport with one of the Esoteric drive mechanisms, with properly implemented spdif output might very well sound better than your Marantz and Oppo (and I sell both of them, and think very highly of them both).
 
But, hey, it's Xmas toay so I hope you all have wonderful 1's and 0's under your ritual Conifers...

 

[computerparts]

  computerparts, all I need is for you to accept that either of my SACD players is at least as good a transport as your (still unnamed) 1K CDP and we can take it from there. In this corner, I have a stock 2014 Macbook Pro running JRMC19 and serving nothing more complex than Redbook and some (genuine) 24/96 downloads of the Ludwig remaster of Springsteen's first 7 albums. I also have the CD boxed set of same and I've played all of them thru the Marantz and the Oppo - I suspect that you arent going to like my conclusions, but we're talking same DAC, same cables and same stock power cords. It's one of the big pluses of having both coaxial in and coaxial out on a player, and I think you'll struggle to find that on a 1K player, but I'm always happy to hear otherwise.
 
Still confused ? Let's start with the music, shall we ?
 
http://tinyurl.com/ksbtjde

 
I have no experience with SACD so I can't say anything for sure. You mention having coax in on the player. Are you using the macbook pro as transport into the player and comparing that to the player used by itself? I remember reading that the even the NA-11S1 is lacking in redbook playback compared to some redbook only players. So I would assume the same to be true for your SA-14S1. But if you're using SACD, then theoretically your Marantz should be better when used by itself.