[hans030390]

Regarding Yggy vs TotalDAC, a lot, but not all, of those impressions are generally what I hear when comparing good non-oversampling vs. good oversampling DACs. Generalizing here, of course, and I know some will disagree.

 

[purrin]

  Thanks for the impression, if possible can you please share some thought about the natural timbre of Yggy vs Master7? which presents the timbre, voice tone better in your opinion? 

 
It depends what you mean by natural - what amps, what transports, and what transducers. Master 7 was thicker sounding, more lush with female vocals, more body with cello, etc. However, this effect, while pleasing, felt unrealistic to me in the longer term.

 

[nicolo]

 

 ​

The amp used is the Pass Labs INT-30A.
 

 
The Pass Labs INT30A doesn't have a headphone output. Which headphone amp did you use?

 

[rawrster]

 

 ​

 

   
The Pass Labs INT30A doesn't have a headphone output. Which headphone amp did you use?

 
There's speaker outputs in the back. You don't necessarily need the typical headphone output.

 

[Argo Duck]

^ Yep, Prep uses speaker outs for his headphones IIRC

 

[BassDigger]

Hi.. Just curious .. Is there any actual digital high res music file which can utilise all the dynamic range says even at full 16 bit? If yes does it mean we have to turn on the volume i.e in excess of 100dB to hear the peak? thks

 
Maybe this is difficult to explain, but I'll have a go (with my own limited understanding):
 
The dynamic range is the difference between the loudest bits and the quietest (the noise floor). In this case we're talking about the limitations of both the recording format (cd,dvda) and playback device (the converter, dac). The perfect format and system combination would be able to replay a 100% accurate and realistic dynamic range. This does not exist. Because of this, recordings are dynamically compressed. This means the quieter parts are made louder (to keep them audible above the noise floor) and the loudest bits are made quieter (to keep them within the capabilities of the format).
On top of this, the technical limitations of the playback equipment also reduces the dynamic range, the 16 bit format and converter being one example of this.
 
Basically, you will always "hear the peak", the loudest parts (unless your volume control is turned too low). A 100dB sound, on the recording, may play anywhere between 1dB or 120dB; it depends on where you've set your volume control (and the capabilities of your system).
 
Actually, the concern is more at the other end of the spectrum; with a wider dynamic range, the quietest bits will be quieter; you may miss them if your volume is turned too low, your system lacks resolution or its noise floor is too high. This is why dynamic range is so important for classical music, because there's such a difference between the whole orchestra playing, or just a single triangle being tinged; with a realistic dynamic range, the full orchestra is maybe 110dB louder than the triangle.
 
True 16 bit recordings are 105dB maximum (I think). That's the difference between the loudest and quietest parts. (But most are significantly less, for 99% of the recording.) Then with the technical restrictions of your system, this is reduced further; maybe to less than 100dB. But despite this, you can still make the loudest parts play at 110dB or more,  if you want, but then the quietest would be maybe be at 10 or 20dB, when they should be 5dB; they would be louder than reality. Alternatively, you can play a true 110dB recorded sound play at 50dB, just because you've set the volume that way.
 
More bits equals more dynamic range, but this has a trade-off, IMO; 24 bit digital (or DSD) may appear technically superior, but it creates other (worse) problems to do this. 16 bit (CD or WAV) and multi-bit (R-2R) dacs have enough headroom, and are the way to go, as far as I'm concerned.
 
(If anyone wants to revise, improve upon or put right my theory or figures, be my guest. But please use confirmed facts and figures, not 'guestimates'; I've used more than enough of those already.

 )

 

[DreamKing]

 

 
 
There's speaker outputs in the back. You don't necessarily need the typical headphone output.

 
There's XLR too, IIRC.

 

[AudioBear]

Here's my simple understanding of the bit war.  The dynamic range for a 16 bit CD is 96-98dB.  20 bit is about 120dB.  Human hearing sensitivity has an incredible 140dB dynamic range but most of that is of little use.  Sounds below 30dB (the volume of a whisper) are seldom heard since background noise levels in a home, office or theater are typically much higher and would mask the quietest sounds. Exposure to sounds over 100 dB for more than short periods of time can be uncomfortable--even painful-- and can cause harmful effects.  FWIW rock concerts often hit 115-120dB.  Realistically, a dynamic range of 70-80dB is more than enough for most recordings.  Symphonic music can reach 80dB of dynamic range.  Recordings are often compressed to lift the lowest sounds up to make them more audible in places like homes (40dB +), cars (65-70dB), etc.  The highs are similarly compressed downward to not just avoid uncomfortably loud  passages that could cause harm to your ears but also to protect amplifiers and speakers from clipping and distortion.  Many recordings are very compressed, particularly with the recent recording emphasis on bass and loudness. All of the above is why 16-bits are more than enough for most purposes.
 
The recent growing popularity of headphones, earbuds, and IEMs may have been facilitated by small portable electronic players but it is also possible that more and more people are discovering that these devices block at least some of the ambient noise and can deliver a very satisfying rendition of music (that's why we're all here isn't it?).  For many, these transducers and the associated equipment not only sound better, they occupy less space and cost less than a comparable room-based stereo system, among other advantages.  It is reasonable to assert at least part of the appeal of Head-Fi is the wider dynamic range that can be heard in the relative absence of external sound.  It is certainly a more personal and intimate experience with the music.
 
The value of 24 and higher bit systems does not arise from the extended and unnecessarily large dynamic range.  If there is an advantage, it is that the recording mixer/engineer and the equipment designer have more bits with which to work their magic.  In simple terms truncating 4-8 bits of the 24 bit recoding's dynamic range would be inaudible but it can be used to advantage to make the 16-bit representation of sound a whole lot more faithful, accurate, and noise free.  24 bit recordings often sound better to me but some don't--that's a can of worms we don't need in a DAC thread.   Let's not go into the higher bit wars.  Suffice it to say that very few consumer DACs render a true 16-18 bit conversion and the very best can seldom claim more than 20 bits.  Some of the very best sounding DACs are said to have an effective resolution as low as 14 bits.  Most people reading this thread believe DACs make a difference in how the music sounds; I do.  It is, however, unlikely that a DACs reproduction of dynamic range beyond 16 bits (eg 96dB) contributes much if anything to how good it sounds.
 
That's my simpleton's understanding.  Don't know if it's right so I'd like to learn more from the rest of the people here.

 

[wahsmoh]

  Thanks for the link! Try this exchange between Barry Diament and another poster. I found it helpful on this topic:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-music-downloads-and-streaming/yes-close-edge-hdtracks-15303/index11.html#post225145

 
My Bob Marley CD I bought off eBay from the 90s. It was mastered by Barry Diament and sounds amazing. You can crank it up and there is no "loudness wars"

 

[sypderman88]

interesting, given that most people listen below 100dB , 16 bit  should be sufficient....

 

[joeexp]

  interesting, given that most people listen below 100dB , 16 bit  should be sufficient....

yep:
10db > 

Barely audible​

20db > ​

Whisper, rustling leaves
40db > Library, bird calls (44 dB) > 

One-eighth as loud as 70 dB.​

70db > 

Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people.​

80db > Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). > 

Possible damage in 8 hr exposure​

100db > Jet take-off (at 305 meters), use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle > 

Serious damage possible in 8 hr exposure​

110db > 

Average human pain threshold. 16 times as loud as 70 dB.​

 
 
given all that 16bit should be more then enough!

 

[catspaw]

 
yep:
10db > 

Barely audible​

20db > ​

Whisper, rustling leaves
40db > Library, bird calls (44 dB) > 

One-eighth as loud as 70 dB.​

70db > 

Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people.​

80db > Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). > 

Possible damage in 8 hr exposure​

100db > Jet take-off (at 305 meters), use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle > 

Serious damage possible in 8 hr exposure​

110db > 

Average human pain threshold. 16 times as loud as 70 dB.​

 
 
given all that 16bit should be more then enough!

While I like your list, its slightly inaccurate:
There is guaranteed damage in human hearing every time you hear something. Even at 30dB.
The difference is how MUCH damage is done .

 

[Techlology]

Question, when you guys say that the Yggy has a noticeably high noise floor. Do you mean that you're hearing more of the crap that gets picked up by mics during recording? Or do you mean a sort of fuzziness to the background, or hell even electrical noise?

 

[BassDigger]

 
yep:
10db > 

Barely audible​

20db > ​

Whisper, rustling leaves
40db > Library, bird calls (44 dB) > 

One-eighth as loud as 70 dB.​

70db > 

Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people.​

80db > Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). > 

Possible damage in 8 hr exposure​

100db > Jet take-off (at 305 meters), use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle > 

Serious damage possible in 8 hr exposure​

110db > 

Average human pain threshold. 16 times as loud as 70 dB.​

 
 
given all that 16bit should be more then enough!

 
It seems like an actual maximum volume setting would be 80dB, even for headbangers! So, if the lowest volume requirement is 20dB then our required dynamic range is about 60dB. Therefore 16 bits is plenty.
 
There're a couple of things worth mentioning:
Loudspeakers are usually quoted @1 metre, for their sensitivity and loudness. But I certainly never sit 1 metre away from my floorstanders. The sound pressure will drop off exponentially for real in-room loudness; the distance makes a big difference eg. that jumbo, up close, produces 150dB+ (=16x @ 305 metres) = instant deafness!
 
I guess headphones are pretty straightforward, because the distance is the same; the depth of the pad.
 
Another factor is the nature of sound, or music. A constant tone will be a constant dB, and also causes hearing damage much sooner. Whereas music is constantly varying, by massive amounts; the peaks will be hitting high volumes, for milliseconds, but it's the average loudness that counts.
It's wise to listen at the minimum level that you can accept, and if you think that it may be too loud, it surely is; turn that volume down; you'll be glad you did, one day!

 

[joeexp]

On top of that our ears are more sensitive to certain frequencies;
There is a peak about 2-4khz - center of human voice
 

 
Looks like Bassheads are doing a lot more damage to their ears ...