[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif At this point, nobody should be advertising for Ken. On the flip side, if you are not owed a refund or a DAC by Ken, you have no right to post.

There's another thread about Storm Audio that is just for members involved.

This thread is dangerous in that it could easily tempt an unknowing individual into what he may think is an innocent purchase of a DAC that sounds like a good deal. I feel that there is a responsibilty to inform them of the underlying situation, so that they can make an informed decision. If they still want to commit their hard earned money after learning about Ken's previous business dealings so be it.

I disagree that you have to be one of the individuals that has lost money to Ken to raise some Red flags. Hugz knew what he/she was getting into when starting this thread, as evident in the first post.

I do think that we should keep our posts to the point, and not get off on a ugly tangent. But how would you feel if you read a thread about a great sounding DAC, plunked down your money, then discovered later that you may never receive the item, and other members were well aware of that, but kept silent?

It may well be a lovely sounding piece of equipment, but you cannot separate the two issues.

 

[003]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif But how would you feel if you read a thread about a great sounding DAC, plunked down your money, then discovered later that you may never receive the item, and other members were well aware of that, but kept silent?

Well, for one, I think that this quote:
"For all discussion about Ken Law's previous dodgy business practices, please visit the Action Against Storm Digital thread. This thread is ONLY for discussion the Storm Pandora DAC. The other thread is ONLY for discussing the previous problems. Thankyou"

That was posted by hugs in the very first post at the very top would be sufficient to alert me to the situation.

 

[boomana]

003, Until Ken makes good, there will be no thread about his DACs that will not be filled with head-fiers who object to others touting his products when he has stolen money from others. It's not unlike situations in which a known thief or predator moves into a neighborhood and all the neighbors get together and let each other know, and then tell new neighbors when they move in. We're a community. That's just what happens and should. I wouldn't waste your effort trying to stop it. You just come off sounding like a fractious twit, and I don't think that's really your style.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, for one, I think that this quote:<snip> That was posted by hugs in the very first post at the very top would be sufficient to alert me to the situation.

Maybe for you but you've been here long enough to know that hardly anyone around here reads a whole thread and that the masses are pretty easily swayed by FOTM talk.

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjalloq /img/forum/go_quote.gif Voltron - I'm affraid I don't follow. The two quotes that you copied from my old post state exactly what I was saying above in my reply to you. LOL. 1st post: I noticed that his website stated the first batch was due to ship. 2nd post: I stated that I "hoped" that following Omon receiving his Pandora that I would also soon receive mine. What is it about those that you don't understand? Further more, you seem to think that Ken has unlimited funds. Would you have him liquidate his current assets and pay off 50% of those he owes money to and leave the rest standing in the cold? I didn't think so. Maybe everyone could follow the following questionnaire before they post: 1. Did you send funds to Ken in order to buy a D02 and either receive faulty goods or not get anything at all? YES : proceed to 3. NO : proceed to 2. 2. ****! 3. Knowing that Ken is now communicating with those he has defrauded or provided faulty goods to, have you tried to make contact with either Ken or the appointed US/EU distributor and let them know of your situation? YES : proceed to 4. NO : What? Why not? Before you post to mouth off, see point 2. 4. Have you been successful in contacting Ken or the US distributor and are happy with the outcome? YES : Great. I hope you get a refund or a replacement soon. Please keep the board informed so that we may monitor the progress of everyone's situation. NO : Please feel free to post or PM me your details so that I can put you in touch with Ken. How's that? Or are you just gonna moan forever, waste your time, my time, and contribute nothing to help solving the problem or helping any one else? Tw@'s.

Just so I understand from a credibility standpoint ,you have 7 months registered here and a whopping 18 posts with 14 of them specific to Storm Audio and have a communication pipeline to Ken that others who have been trying to get their DACs from seem not to be able to get. Am I close with the facts, then I am to beleive that you purchased a dac that now is an elegant paperweight but then went on the spend even more monwy with Storm audio, if you were a reasonable person might you not question your credibility here just a little bit??




Quote:

Originally Posted by sjalloq /img/forum/go_quote.gif swt61 - you just don't get it do you! I'm not condoning what Ken did, I'm trying to be constructive and help out where I can. If I spent all my time slagging him off, do you really think I'd get what I'm owed?

I'm not sure providing funds to someone who stole from you you is constructive kinda like giving a junkie crack. Yeah if someone steals, lies, makes false promises and then comes out with a new product yeah I would think those that care about the community would make it a point to point out to the members thinking of doing business with Ken to steer clear.

Oh and I don'r know how active you are here but the people you are telling to **** and call silly childish schoolboy names to actually ran the International meet last year and care a great deal about the community. The others are regualr members that contribute to the community, they make cool headphone stands, go to meets, loan people gear they have never seen, have sent members cash when they have come up short paying for meets, contribute to the site to help defray the costs to run it. You sir with your 18 posts and 7 months what have you contributed to give you a bit of credibilty here.............

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread is dangerous in that it could easily tempt an unknowing individual into what he may think is an innocent purchase of a DAC that sounds like a good deal. I feel that there is a responsibilty to inform them of the underlying situation, so that they can make an informed decision. If they still want to commit their hard earned money after learning about Ken's previous business dealings so be it.

Several months ago I thought this to be an unlikely scenario given the (rightfully) negative publicity Storm has received on Head-Fi. Subsequent posts by unknowing members, including the recent thread in which someone asked whether he should buy a Stello DA100 or Storm Pandora, changed my mind. The community's instincts were right and mine were wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree that you have to be one of the individuals that has lost money to Ken to raise some Red flags.

When this thread first went up I would have insisted that it was entirely disrespectful to ignore the OP's request to keep discussion of anything other than the actual product out of this thread, but at that time my assumption was that DACs would begin shipping soon after. When the shipping dates were repeatedly pushed back (with no meaningful deadline in sight) I believe this thread lost any valid claim on being a place for information on the product. I'm not sure why anyone would expect things to be any different. When obligations and then promises to meet prior obligations are not fulfilled, anything is fair game. It might be ugly, and it might be stupid, but there's no stopping it and really no reason to try.

However, I think it's very unfortunate that members who are still waiting for Ken to fulfill his obligations and promises wind up chastised by the rest of the community for still trying to work with him towards a resolution and for being excited about finally getting the product they paid for eons ago. People have a tendency towards hopefulness and crushing their positive outlook is mean spirited and serves only to aggravate them. This is also still an audio enthusiasts' forum, even for people who were screwed over, and perhaps even especially for them. Their right to be enthusiastic should not be diminished and their enthusiasm should not be the target of the community's frustration. Accusing members with low post counts of being shills without proof or reasonable cause is ridiculous. I bought a D02 from a member with under 10 posts. Head-Fi happens to be frequented by a large number of guests, and many people purchase things mentioned in our forums without ever registering.

I do know that quite a few people waiting on Pandora's are in communication with Ken. Most of them don't seem to post what information they have anymore (the actuality of which would remain to be seen anyway), and my guess is that this because they are not treated very kindly when they do. Because of this, the perspective on the situation for now gets to be essentially one-sided, with a couple of members taking the community's crucification while the rest remain silent. The end result, whatever it will be, remains the same, so I don't find this to be much of a concern. It is what it is.

I have some information and some opinions (the recent purchase of a Monarchy M24 being the manifestation of at least one), but I have the wherewithal to keep things to myself until there is a meaningful development worth (my) caring about. I don't like what I'm seeing here, but the understandably hostile mood is something each member gets to decide whether to engage for himself.

One day, however, if I ever receive the infamous DAC, I hope that the community will respect me enough not to trash my thread when I post to speak to the unit's quality, reliability and sound. Until then, Dear Friends.

 

[003]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe for you but you've been here long enough to know that hardly anyone around here reads a whole thread

Neither do I. The quote in question is in bold, in original post, at the very top. It's kind of hard to miss.

 

[boomana]

Superpredator, you have a lot of valid points, but no one here is raising objections to someone expressing hope for getting their DAC, or for even speculating enthusiastically about a DAC sighting, questioning what may be, etc. I am in the same boat with Larry from LaRocco over the Diablo, and have been involved in more than one thread on more than one site regarding same. That is NOT what is going on in this thread. A few people have chosen to post reviews about a product by a company that has stolen from the community. Until that mess is cleared up, the posters seem at best apologists for a thief, and shills at worst. You yourself have noted how newer members have only picked up on the praise/hype. Where did it come from? If no one stands up and stops it, when we know the deal, who is to blame if those who don't yet know get suckered in?

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 003 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Neither do I. The quote in question is in bold, in original post, at the very top. It's kind of hard to miss.

I don't think Nate was referring to Hugz' post. I think what he meant was even though Hugz referred them to the other thread, most people are not likely to read it all.

I truly hope that everyone who has given money to Ken Law gets either a refund or a DAC, and I believe at this point they should have full choice of which one that should be.
I don't believe Hugz meant to incite this kind of controversy, however I do believe it's irresponsible to tout a product with this kind of history, therefore Hugs' initial request was wishful thinking, and beyond his/her control.

Your history speaks volumes about your character, and I respect your opinion a great deal 003, I just don't agree with it this time. But there you have the basis for a healthy discussion.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Superpredator, you have a lot of valid points, but no one here is raising objections to someone expressing hope for getting their DAC, or for even speculating enthusiastically about a DAC sighting, questioning what may be, etc. I am in the same boat with Larry from LaRocco over the Diablo, and have been involved in more than one thread on more than one site regarding same. That is NOT what is going on in this thread. A few people have chosen to post reviews about a product by a company that has stolen from the community. Until that mess is cleared up, the posters seem at best apologists for a thief, and shills at worst. You yourself have noted how newer members have only picked up on the praise/hype. Where did it come from? If no one stands up and stops it, when we know the deal, who is to blame if those who don't yet know get suckered in?

I have absolutely no issue with this thread being turned into a huge signpost saying stay away from Storm Audio until further notice. It is my personal recommendation. It is the only sensible recommendation, and it deserves widespread attention. However, I think it takes some wishfully selective reading and/or thinking not to take note of the antagonistic attitude levied against anyone who suggests that Ken might not be a scammer and might actually come through in the end. Anyone is obviously free to interpret the events that have transpired as evidence that Ken is a thief. And anyone is free to interpret them differently. You cannot limit the variables involved to your interpretation of them and then expect others to play by your interpretation. Accusing members of being apologists for a thief and/or shills when they are either not convinced Ken is a thief or did not believe Ken was a thief when they originally posted their thoughts on the Pandora is perfectly fine if you simply want to make a statement, but it is a highly alienating move. I think any absolute belief as to guilt or innocence here is unwarranted; "guilty until delivery" is not necessary when "highly suspect until delivery" will do. I don't think anyone will quibble with highly suspect and if they do, have at them.

Aside from that and despite widespread claim that a premature review of the Pandora serves only to make matters worse, a thread for discussion of the Pandora as a product would have been of great benefit to the members awaiting resolution. No one yet knows for sure whether the Pandora will be free of issues or even be a decent DAC at all. Members who originally paid money for a D02 had read many impressions and reviews of the unit beforehand, and they haven't exactly been able to do this with the Pandora. I suspect that the ongoing hostility towards anyone who would dare post impressions is limiting the potential for sharing information. The majority of people vocalizing on the subject seem so terrified of a positive review that they're forgetting the very real possibility of a negative one, one that would help the members involved decide whether they should take the DAC or instead demand a refund. One could say that in light of the uncertainty as to quality people should simply do the safe thing and demand the refund, but that's easy to say when your money isn't on the line and not so easy when you're well aware of the uncertainty over even getting anything at all.

 

[sjalloq]

jp11801

LOL, another laughable post. So now you're not content just attacking Ken, you're questioning the credibility of a poster trying to understand the full situation and help in any way to getting people their money back. Nice.

In fact, let me take a moment to give you my story. Even though I only have a few posts I have been around for a long time. In fact well before the original D02 saga started. At the time I'm sure I posted on the forum and again at the start of those Heed CanAmp threads as I now have one sat on my desk. Even though akwok seems to have given up completely on getting his Pandora, if you asked him, I'm sure he'd confirm that it was himself who helped me transfer my money to Ken originally. If it helps you, I'm more than happy to take a picture of my "paper weight" and post it up here. The reason for my lack of posts is that I don't have enough time in the day. I follow quite a number of forums, mostly as a lurker trawling for information on particular points of interest. If and when I post it's normally just to clarify something I couldn't get from reading the thread. For some on here it is obviously a little more than just an information resource, as can be seen by the number of posts some of you have, but questioning someone over that number screams more of a cult than an open forum.

At the end of the day I'm happy for people to warn their fellow community members against giving any money to Ken. In fact I wouldn't either, at least not until I'm happy that he is back on his feet and the business is generating cash. Why you seem to have the opinion that I'm throwing more cash his way I'm not sure. What I don't see the point of is the continual bashing. It doesn't help anyone get their funds or product that they are owed. In fact, from my eyes it just seems downright ludicrous why anyone would do that. As many have pointed out, the disclaimer on the front of this thread is there for everyone to see and many more posts at the beginning have explained why it is there. EOC.

I apologise for my earlier attacks but you just look and sound like a rowdy lynch mob. What you are contributing to helping people in this particular situation comes to the total sum of zero. I think if you went back and re-read my posts you would realise that I am not a defender of what Ken did, I am in fact just interested in the guy getting back in business and sorting everyone out. He is in this situation off of his own back but I'm not going to wish more financial pain on him. Until I'm proven wrong I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and I sincerely hope that a few more people let him get on with it. As in my point 4 above, if no-one wants to own up to the fact that they are still having difficulty contacting Ken or the US distributor to sort out their problems, then that screams to me that everyone is happy and your jibes have no standing whatsoever.

And finally, I assume your last comment was wrt Voltron? I actually don't care if he was the President or Mother Teresa, anyone who does or says something stupid should be brought up to account for it. If he wants to follow a path of trying to distort what I said, followed by ignoring my questioning of that, followed by just posting pictures, then I must say, he has grown considerably in my estimation. LOL.

Edit - I hope my new avatar makes him happy.

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Head-fi is a community. Healthy communities care about their members, empathize with those who have lost their money, and want new members to avoid a similar fate or at least be aware of the HUGE problem. We are all involved, whether we purchased one or not, simply because we ARE a community and actually care about each other. No one here created any drama exept Ken Law. Ken has not yet made good on paid orders long ago, and you dare to be annoyed with people who post about it while you tout his product as something worth having? What kind of shill are you? You want to choose who gets to post and who does not? You want to review a product that doesn't, and may never, exist for those who paid for it? You want to suck new members into thinking it will all be okay? I would call your attitude annoying, but dangerous, disrespectful, and disgusting are far more apt. Until Ken makes good on ALL his orders, it doesn't matter if it's the best dac in the world. He's a thief until he proves otherwise, and you have chosen to align your sentiments with him rather than with the community he screwed over. Shame on you.

I'm all for defending the community here and preventing people from getting ripped off. It's just so repetative to see people post up "so who's got their refund?" just to see some drama unfold. we all already KNOW that no one's got their refund.. the only reason they post the question is to have a laugh and the drama, not because they're actually wanting to learn anything.

i agree that his dac is worthless till he makes good on all the previous orders. that why whenever someone asks me if they should buy the dac i recommend that no they dont, at least until all the current stuff is made good on and he proves himself to be for real. until that time i wont recommend anyone to buy off him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did you order or do you own a DAC from Storm Audio?

I've ordered a dac from storm, yes. I also talk to ken on msn which is why i post up here (because i can often provide new information about when he's going to refund people or post out the dacs or the progess or dacs). I post up not because I enjoy seeing the drama and fuss, but because i'm trying to provide new information to those who are involved in the problems with ken, in an attempt to make a little bit more aware of the likely outcomes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecclesand /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for hugz...you mention that you're tired and annoyed with people posting on this thread asking if those involved received their DAC or refund. Quite frankly, I'm tired of people like you telling those of us "not involved" to back off and not post. This is not your forum or your thread for that matter. We are ALL involved either directly or indirectly. I think it's an utter disgrace that you created this thread in the first place to review a product that is involved in so much scandal and that most folks who ordered have not even received yet!

I'm not saying that only those who are dirctly involved should post.. i'm just sayin that people who aren't involved shouldn't post PURELY BECAUSE THEY'RE ENJOYING THE DRAMA. Post up if you're actually an interested party, but please dont post up just to stir the pot because it wont help anything and will just make people feel worse

also i think its cute how you criticise me from because you interpret that i'm telling people when they can and cannot post........ yet in the same post you tell ME that i shouldn't be posting this thread. nice

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltron /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quote: Originally Posted by hugz As said by someone above, steer clear of the storm until the waters have settled. If he finally gets hit **** together and starts reliably shipping the units out then I still have faith in it because it sounds so nice.... however i wouldn't strictly recommend anyone putting any money down before that time. hugz: Why is it that in another context--a Stello vs. Pandora thread--you posted the above, but in this travesty of a "review thread" you cannot seem to do anything but defend this rip-off artist? No matter how earnest or good-intenioned you believe Ken Law to be, he had stolen Head-Fiers' money and refused to return it. He also has had the nerve to coax people like you into shilling for him (whether you see it that way or not) on a "new product" that he wants to sell to people. Apparently Ken has enough capital to buy components and get cases machined and send samples of the Pandora to you and to audio shows so more people can be tricked into believing Storm Audio is anything more than a fraud. Those funds should have been used to repay people first and then move on to new projects. Can most people in this community do ANYTHING about it other than post their sentiments and their warnings in threads like this one so others don't get suckered? No, because Ken is outside the US and in a place where there is really no way to bring him to justice. So, hugz, it seems like you should make up your mind to support this community or to support a scammer, because that is all Ken Law is until he completely cleans up his act and makes everybody whole. Oh, and sjalloq, you can stow your comments about "mouthing off." You yourself posted on 8/30 that Ken claimed all units in the first batch were shipping and would be received within a week, but you never received yours and you haven't even gotten any tracking info as far as your posts indicate. That is yet another lie told by Ken Law but you insist on posting nice comments about the sample you saw at an audio show and trying to shout down comments on this forum! How dare you? Find another forum if you don't like the openness of this one.

It's simple. I support this community as my #1. I also think that ken makes a damn good dac. thats all there is to it. because this community is my #1 priority i would never want to put someone at risk of being scammed. thus i would never recommend anyone to buy off ken if i think there's a risk of them being scammed. that's why i posted that in the other thread.

i would never want anyone to get scammed so i wont recommend anyone to buy a storm if i think there's any risk that its a scam. that does not change the fact that i HAVE heard the pandora and it sounds great; so i post that information too. i'm just trying to share my knowledge about somethin that a LOT of people are interested in. a whole lot of people are very interested in the pandora yet almost no one has got to see or hear one. i have so i'm tryin to share my good fortune of being one of the few who have gotten past the scam and heard the unit

also how can you say to somone else "find another forum if you dont like the openness of this one". its not too open if you're telling someone to leave for sayin something you dont like

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where is the popcorn-eating smiley when you need it?

my point exactly. too much drama and not enough information. i'm of the opinion that those who are owned money are probably more interested in seeing someone provide some new information regarding ken than hearing 20 people say "lolz so who has their refund yet? nobody? geee who would've thought"

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I respectfully disagree. Everyone has the right to post/speak/voice their opinion; otherwise this precedence could have far reaching, unintended consequences.

as long as their opinion is saying bad things abuot ken though. if they're saying good things about the dac that they've heard than they're a shill and should leave the forum