[Spyro]

Perhaps I have misinterpreted some things I have read and I know the bottom line is whether it sounds good to you but I have some clarification questions regarding soundstage.

My understanding is that soundstage is an artificial sound factor. Sort of a reverberration affect creating a spaciousness with regards to instrument location and even fullness of sound. It seems soundstage is spoken as a good and desireable trait with headphones but is often talked negatively with IEM's...like it's not done right or is REALLY artificial. I would think a large soundstage is always desireable regardless it be headphone or IEM. I would like to hear people's comments on this. Thanks

 

[jinx20001]

soundstage is difficult for IEM's to create due to being actually in the head, so we generally hear it in the centre of our head, some IEM's acn create a good soundstage giving the effect of around you and not inside your head, the type of music and recording helps.

full size headphones will have bigger soundstage alot easier because they are not actually placed or used inside your ears

 

[Faust2D]

Soundstage is largely dependent on the recording. It's basicly the ability of the recording to truthfully represent the actual recording space and / or 3D positioning of all instruments and voices in recording's space.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif Soundstage is largely dependent on the recording.

I agree. And an apparent soundstage wider than just between your ears can be achieved with IEMs, but it depends on the recording.

For a good example, check out the binaural recordings sticky thread (in Music forum?) and find the virtual barber recording. I swear it sounds like the one guy just pulled up a chair about 15 or so feet to my front left. With my eyes shut, it sounds truly like he is in the room with me.

 

[only500made]

to me, it depends on what kind of music it is. I noticed that artists that use "real" instruments such as BB King and Bob Marley give you that picture of a "soundstage", but not as wide as full sized cans.

 

[honda]

True soundstage is 100% in the recording. And a good IEM has the ability to reproduce that information accurately, but only that information without adding anything else.

If a guitar was recorded direct-in at the studio, and it sounds far away in your IEMs, you can like and enjoy it all you want, but that's not what it is suppose to sound like. It should sound as if it is about an inch away from your eardrums, whether that sounds pleasant or not.

Likewise, if a live orchestral performance was recorded with 2 mics in front of the stage, you should hear the first violins up close to the left, the horns a bit further behind them, the violas up close to the right, and the double basses far off to the right with trumpets behind them, and low brass behind the trumpets. If your IEMs make it sound like your head is inside the bass body and there is a harp directly above your head and some violins far, far away, despite the amazing illusion of "vertical soundstage" it's not doing a good job rendering the music, is it? There is no vertical information because the 2 mics are in the same plane. The only soundstage information recorded is how far away each instrument is from each mic, it's only enough to give you 2D directional distance (how far away in general, how far to the left, how far to the right).

I call that "true soundstage." Then there is "artificial soundstage" that is caused among other, by unbalance of frequencies and reverberation due to long soundbores or eartips (too long usually), drivers placed too far away from your eardrums will do this as well. The frequencies that the driver is good at producing (its sweet spot) will sound closer than the frequencies it is not good at producing. Then there are things like harmonic cancellation that weakens some frequencies, therefore making them sound further away. Bends in the soundbore also repress some frequencies more than others, and add another twist in the effects of reverberation. Sometimes artificial soundstage can be fun or enjoyable. But before an IEM is to be judged, one must remember that this is not the way the music was originally recorded. Whether you like it or not is a different story.

 

[Spyro]

Great post Honda. That's as good an explanation as I've ever heard. Thanks

 

[Duggeh]

Those of you wanting to lean about soundstage insohow as it pertains to the reproduction of music in headphone listening MUST read Darthnuts Omega 2 review. He uses a new type of vocabulary to describe sonic effects in headphone listening without the hangover from terms which are designed to be used with loudspeaker listening.

There is no headphone I have heard which comes close to my speaker rig for soundstaging, but headstage is a very different affair.

The review is badly formatted and this can be a little offputting, but its the best headphone review written ever imo.

 

[luidge]

Wow this sure is a long review Duggeh! I don't think i have the heart to read it all. However, Honda, i found that your post reflect what i believe is true (good) and fake (bad) soundstage. This is an interesting thread since i believe that soundstage is one of the hardest part of SQ to analyse.

 

[Ruckus]

Guess best way to think of soundstage I would think is.

An Orchestra in your headphone.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda /img/forum/go_quote.gif Likewise, if a live orchestral performance was recorded with 2 mics in front of the stage, you should hear the first violins up close to the left, the horns a bit further behind them, the violas up close to the right, and the double basses far off to the right with trumpets behind them, and low brass behind the trumpets. If your IEMs make it sound like your head is inside the bass body and there is a harp directly above your head and some violins far, far away, despite the amazing illusion of "vertical soundstage" it's not doing a good job rendering the music, is it? There is no vertical information because the 2 mics are in the same plane. The only soundstage information recorded is how far away each instrument is from each mic, it's only enough to give you 2D directional distance (how far away in general, how far to the left, how far to the right).

Well, I'll mention again binaural recordings. Done with 2 mics, yet create an impressive 3D illusion. It shouldn't be necessary to place mics at different vertical locations to get a sense of 3D. We use 2 ears every day, but don't hear the world as existing only in a 2D plane.

I agree that if your IEMs can't accurately reproduce the recorded information and bizarrely put instruments where they shouldn't be, that is bad.

 

[honda]

It's true, we use 2 ears and we pick up vertical information. The thing that differs in IEMs is that our outer ears are completely bypassed. That is where much of the vertical information comes from. Even with that said, I do believe humans can more accurately judge distances of sound that is nearer to eye level than judging how far away vertically a sound is coming from overhead. But let's not get into biology here. That's not quite how far I would like taking this conversation.

Binaural recordings are probably the only recordings that have true soundstage information contained in them. In them you can often judge vertically where sound is coming from. And the reason is just as I mentioned above; binaural recording is done with mics inserted into the ears of a mannequin head. So the sound actual travels through the mannequin's outer ears before arriving at the mics. This makes up for the IEM's bypassing of the outer ears, and this is probably the biggest reason why you get vertical information in binaural recordings. The ER-4 series, especially the ER-4B really shines here!

The next best thing to binaural is the twin mics set up on the same plane at the desired distance from the stage of a live performance. You get all the 2D distance information you want, but you don't get the outer ears of the mannequin. I use my ER-4B with this type of recordings as well.

There are tricks we can use in the studio to produce an effect of soundstage too. Basically we can pan left or right and add reverb in strategic ways. For example, a sound that you want to seem to come from far off to the right, you would pan that to the right, and add heavy reverb to it, which creates the sense of distance, and you would add some of that reverb to the left side at a split second delay, because your left ear is further away from the source than your right ear, so a delayed arrival of the reverb at the left ear will convince your brain that the sound is coming from the right side, and originating quite far away.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjisme /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I'll mention again binaural recordings. Done with 2 mics, yet create an impressive 3D illusion. It shouldn't be necessary to place mics at different vertical locations to get a sense of 3D. We use 2 ears every day, but don't hear the world as existing only in a 2D plane. I agree that if your IEMs can't accurately reproduce the recorded information and bizarrely put instruments where they shouldn't be, that is bad.

 

[pageman99]

Here's my take.

Soundstage isn't just in the recording. The information is there, at least on good recordings, but how it is presented depends on the dac, amp and headphones.

Certain tubes in my amp give a better soundstage than others. That's a fact. So we know the amp is involved.

There's no doubt my SACDmods Sony has a better soundstage than many other dacs/players. That's a fact.

Certain headphones have a larger soundstage than others, that also a fact. Just go through all the headphone review threads.

I've listened to the same recording on different days with the same equipment at the same volumes and have perceived widely different soundstages. That's the psycho accoustics at work. The brains ability to perceive is involved. That's also a fact.

I've listened to my E9's through my SACDmods source and Mapletree amp and felt as though I were literally sitting in the best seat in the house with the sound as full as that of an opera house, with all the instruments placed on stage as though they were there live.

THAT's true soundstage.

As far as IEMs, I've definitely heard excellent soundstage with my UM2's. Though not as good as with headphones. I think it may be possible to have what I just called true soundstage with IEMs. I've been close enough that I suspect it's possible with better IEMs than the UM2s. But they were pretty darn good.

A caveat, I believe that this is a learned effect, much as appreciating true audiophile equipment is a learned effect. We're dealing in incredible subtleties, here and it takes incredible equipment and incredible perception when you think about it.

I've been listening to headphones for over 40 years, so perhaps what I perceive is a bit different than what most perceive. Like anything worthwhile getting the most from your activities takes time AND active practice.

But then, in my experience, it's well worth it. Some of my most transcendent moments in this life have come listening to music through my headphones.

 

[b0dhi]

I get the best soundstage from earbuds. To my ears, closed phones sound like listening in a bathroom, and open phones (except the plastic Grados) sound a little reverby. That said, earbuds don't sound anything like real, just more realistic than full sized phones I've heard. Most binaural recordings also don't sound realistic to me (except binaural fireworks recordings, for some reason).

The only way to get a truly realistic soundstage, IMO, is to use non-resonant IEMs or earbuds and a custom HRTF DSP adapted to your ears/head.

 

[ericj]

but are we talking about in-head imaging, out-of-head imaging, or way-out-of-head imaging?