[tmengay]

AmpliFlac

 

[Ableza]

I'll write up a detailed comparison impression later, but my initial reactions: Pono is simple to use, and sounds more detailed and forward than the iPhone/Beyer combo, with less bass emphasis and much more extended high end. It sounds very similar to my Wavelength Proton. The high res tracks from Pono are excellent. In addition to 1974 the SD card contained a 24/192 copy of Deja Vu. This is by far the best sounding version of that classic album I have ever heard, besting the original vinyl IMO.

 

[Ableza]

OK, here are my impressions of the Pono Player.  I ordered a CSNY signature limited edition, and received #218 of 496.  Here is the beautiful bamboo box it arrived in, and what's inside:
 
 

The player comes with a brown leather carrying case, quick start instructions (complete with Neil Young's printed signature) a USB cable, power supply for charging, and the 64Gb micro SD card containing the included albums.  With this player is a 24/192 version of CSNY 1974 live set and their 1970 album Deja Vu.
 

 The engraved signatures
 

Reminder that this is an Ayre DAP when you power it on. 
 
My initial impression of the user interface is it is pretty simple and easy to use.  You must use the touch screen to navigate or play tracks, and it takes a little getting used to.  There seems to be no software EQ nor other system controls other than things like screen brightness, orientation lock, etc.  It does have a shuffle play mode.  The three hard buttons on the front are "+" and "-" for headphone output level control, and "O" which is a combination power button and pause or stop for playback. 
 
This review is about how it sounds, but there are some things about the UI that are a bit strange and not intuitive, such as when connecting to a computer via USB you must tell it YES you want to load tracks (even if you don't) to get it recognized, and if you click the "Done" button that immediately follows that screen it will disconnect.  Also, the Pono Music World app, a custom version of JRiver, does not recognize the 64Gb SD card as a drive, it only "sees" the 60Gb of internal memory (which is loaded with a 24/192 track from Neil Young's Harvest album.)  Loading music from my server onto the Pono was very easy.  I trust that as the product matures some of the minor usability issues I see now will improve through software and firmware updates.
 
So how does it sound?  I travel a lot for my job, and I rely on my iPhone 5S played through a Beyerdynamic (Astell and Kern) A200 external DAC/AMP as my main music source while traveling.  I bought Pono hoping it could become my road warrior replacement device allowing me to take high res tracks along with my 16/44 main library contents.  I also regularly use a Wavelength Proton portable DAC/headphone amp with my PC laptop for listening when I'm at various office sites.  So, I compared the Pono to these two systems, listening through my Etymotic HF3 travel IEMs and also my trusty Sennheiser HD580s that I take on the road.  I did not compare this to my home office desktop system with Wavelength Brick, Schiit Lyr and MrSpeakers Alpha Dogs (or Senn HD650s) because I wanted to compare it to the systems I plan to upgrade.  I hope this makes sense to folks?
 


The competitors
 
First test.  I could not resist simply trying Pono, so I loaded the Micro SD card, plugged in my travel Senns and fired up Deja Vu.  Wow.  This is by far the finest sounding copy of this recording I have ever heard.  All of the muddiness of the earlier CD masters is gone, the tracks sound live and clean.  And the Pono's sound quality seems very good.  A nice start, and tells me the Pono is at least in the same league as what I need.  So the comparison begins.  I transferred a selection of 16/44 and 24/96 tracks from my library, and also transferred the 24/192 Deja Vu tracks to my server (I use a Vortexbox 2.3 music server.)  First test was a selection of three tracks in 16/44 ALAC representing some of the types of music I typically listen to.  A rocker from Bob Mould, a Beatles track from Revolver, and a vocal jazz track from Peggy Lee.  I listened to all three on the iPhone/Beyer combo using the IEMs, and then the same tracks on the Pono with the same IEMs.  I level matched by ear.
 
I am very familiar with the sound of the Beyer A200.  Slight bass-emphasis, overall "smooth" sound and a slightly rolled off high end.  Very pleasant.  The Pono sounded much more forward, with no bass emphasis and a much more extended high end that almost sounded sibilant or harsh at times.  It is much more detailed and accurate sounding than the Beyer, almost clinical in fact.  Not necessarily better or worse, but very certainly different.  The Pono sounded the best with Peggy Lee as the Arye analog section really pushes the vocals through.  I changed from the IEMs to the HD580s and tried a couple other random tracks that were loaded onto both devices, including a bass-heavy track from Die Antwoord, and the edge for bass and "smooth" edge-fee sound definitely went to the Beyer, while the edge for vocals, clarity and high end extension to Pono.  Even at max volume I could not make Pono distort.
 
Next I wanted to compare the high resolution capability to that of the Wavelength, so I compared the Deja Vu tracks on both and several other 24/96 tracks that I had obtained previously, including some jazz and the new release of Houses of the Holy from HD Tracks.  The Pono really shines with HD material.  The edginess and forward sound that it gave to the Redbook material was largely gone, although it still emphasizes the midrange in a way that the Wavelength does not and Pono really sounds a little sibilant at times.  The Proton is far more refined and realistic sounding, and blows away Pono in terms of overall balance and ease of listening.  But then again it is an altogether different animal being a dedicated DAC powered from a Win7 laptop running Foobar and costing quite a bit more than the Pono, so perhaps the comparison is unfair.  But it was clear to me that the Proton will remain my laptop sound card/headphone amp. 
 
Bottom line:  I will at least for a few months replace my iPhone/Beyer A200 road rig with the Pono, if only because it sounds sooo good with high res material, something the iPhone simply cannot do (without hacks and things I am not willing to try.)  But IMO that's all it will replace.  It's my new portable music player, which perhaps is all it's really meant to be.
 
Will Pono change the world?  Not in my opinion.  The player is nice, easy to use, and sounds great.   But it costs too much for the average user, and while it sounds great with HD tracks, it is not the first nor will it be the last portable DAP to do so.  The real innovation here seems to me not to be the player as much as the promise their music store brings.  The 24/192 CSNY tracks sound astounding.  They are better than the 24/96 CSNY 1974 Blu Ray tracks that I also have.  If Pono the company is able to fulfill their promise of offering the highest possible resolution music taken directly from the masters, then I think their store could become the real game changer.  Only time will tell.

 

[depaor]

Fine review Ableza. Nicely put together, and clear on the ups and downs.

It will be interesting to see if you get to enjoy the Pono more after a burn-in period. IBasso recommend up to 400 hours for the DX90

 

[ab_ba]

 
 
Thanks to those who are posting on this thread. I’m finding this discussion valuable. My experience and feelings have evolved somewhat since my last post.
 
Perhaps I am asking too much, but I had hoped the Pono experience would be something really different. As a standadlone hires music player, it’s a nice-sounding device, and I’ve been enjoying it. I agree with The Auricle’s comment yesterday that the software is version 1.0, and I’m sure they will improve it. I want Pono to succeed, very badly. It’s about time that all downloadable music was hi-res. There’s no reason why hi-res isn’t the norm now - storage space is no longer the bottleneck it used to be. If Apple’s not going to take the lead on hi-res for the masses, then other companies have to take charge. Pono could do it, but I don’t see how they’re going to get there from here.
 
I think my biggest concern with their business plan is simply this: the pricing of music on the Pono store. As I understand it, mastering for iTunes is a pretty involved process. You have to take the original master, which is hi-res, and process it so that it still sounds good once it’s been compressed and then played through a smartphone’s DAC. That takes skill and finesse, and it's expensive, and it's all only required when we have compressed files and poor playback devices. In comparison, releasing the hi-res mix to be played on a hi-res player seems to require minimal audio engineering - that’s the whole point - just don’t touch the master! So, why am I paying more for music in the Pono store? It doesn’t matter that the file is four times larger - bits are essentially free. If this is how the artists want me to hear their music, why are they creating a cost barrier? Charge what iTunes charges, but provide a better product - then the masses might come sniffing around.
 
The Pono player is not going to supplant smartphones as a portable music source for most people. There isn’t enough boost in sound quality here to convince most folks they need to carry around two devices, especially when you still can’t convince most people to spend even ~$100 on decent headphones. The PonoWorld software isn’t going to replace iTunes anytime soon. The advanced features may be great, but the regular stuff has to be simpler, and less buggy.  And, perhaps most frustrating of all, the Pono music store isn’t going to disrupt the hi-res downloads market. They aren’t even competitive on price with the existing hi-res sites, let alone iTunes, and so far they aren’t providing information on the provenance of their files.
 
I’m just sad because I thought hi-res of the masses was their goal, but everything about Pono so far has been “business as usual” - evolution not revolution, and even a step backward in some ways. While it is nice to have our FLAC files in our pockets for those of us who care, I’m still hoping Pono might become relevant for people outside head-philedom, but it’s not going to get there like this.
 
OK a couple comments based on recent posts on this thread:
- I am still struggling to get music onto and off of my Pono. I took the suggestion The Auricle made of trying to work directly in Finder (I’m on a Mac) with the Pono player. That’s better than using the PonoWorld software, but it’s still not reliable. The SD card does not appear in the Finder most of the time, so I have to unplug and retry till I get it. If I move too many files at once, it hangs and I need to reboot. When I delete songs, after a couple plug-ins and ejects, the index file was updated on the player, and the song vanished from the list. Another frustration: the PonoWorld software shows a message saying: “(Failed) PonoPlayer Firmware …” No further information is available - that window can’t even be resized to view the rest of the message. It’s frustrating to think they’ve made some fixes already, but I can’t have them.
 
- zorntel’s point that the Pono allows you to have multiple SD cards is great. If I can figure out why my SD card is flaky, I’ll get a few more so I can have all my FLAC music near on hand. 
 
-  goody, to answer your question, I use the app called FLAC Player on my iPhone. Yup, the iPhone is limited to 16 bits, so FLAC Player isn’t playing the native resolution. Now that I have the 6 plus (128 GB), I’m going to take zorntel’s suggestion of using ALAC files. I’ll bet the Pono will still sound better. Once I do it I’ll re-post. I’m also going to give AmpliFlac a try (thanks, tmengay), and hook up my Pico vis the camera connector kit.
 
- Inspired by Ableza, I played tracks on my iPhone and my Pono LOUD (like, beyond a comfortable listening level). The Pono holds its stuff together at much higher volumes than the iPhone does. On the iPhone the bass gets boomy and the mids sound compressed (like a tunnel) as you get past comfortable listening levels. The Pono still sounds good when it’s loud. That’s another way in which the audio is better on the Pono player. 
 
- A bit about me, and my ears, in case this impacts how much you want to believe my impression that the improvement in sound quality over an iPhone is slight. Of all my headphones: JH-13 iems, HD650, HE500, LFF Paradox, I like my JH-13’s the most. I’d say they are “detailed”, whereas my HD650s are “musical”, and everything else is somewhere in between. My normal (non-portable) hi-res listening is FLAC files played through Audirvana. I use a Resonessence Concero HP for my DAC/amp. With all this gear, I still feel I cannot reliably distinguish a 24-bit FLAC file from the same file converted to a 320 bps AAC file. Sometimes I think I hear something, but if I did an A/B/X test, I’m pretty sure I’d do no better than guessing. I’ve never actually done a true A/B/X test - usually I just put on my music and smile. If you are somebody for whom the difference between 24-bit flac and 320 aac is “night and day”, then Pono is for you. Or, actually, Pono probably isn’t for you either, and you’ll want an Astell & Kern.

 

[FastAndBulbous]

Hi all
 
Used to be a Head-Fi member a few years ago but cannot find my old name and password so have rejoined, hence am a newbie.
 
There is something that should be born in mind about the Pono player. It needs a lot of burn in time before it gives of its best, sonically. I found it changes within a few days quite significantly. Harshness diminishes a lot, the sound gets warmer and far more spacious. It sort of stabilises at that for a while and then after a much longer period it changes again. Then the sound is amongst the best I have heard. Separation and dynamics of individual instruments becomes amongst the best I have listened to, detail resolution the same. This is true on 16/44.1 as well as high res files.
 
Just to position myself, I use an A&K 120 (now for sale), a reasonably high end home system and have experience with high end DACs from the likes of Meridian. Headphones are modded HD600s and Etymotic ER4-Ps with custom moulds. have used the Etys for many years, these are my third pair. Also familiar with many more including Klipsch X10i, a lot of the Sennheiser range, Grado blah blah blah. I have also heard the Pono with the ACS T1 and thought it stunning. So much so that I have a pair on order - the Pono is more than capable of driving them and shows the A&K 120 a clean pair of heels. That is not just my opinion but also shared by others who have had the chance to A/B both devices using the same cans, including the T1s. Incidentally, the Etys have never sounds better - they and the Pono are a very good match - not so hot with the impedance converter though I found.
 
The Pono player also supports balanced mode output in a configuration that I think is unique - it uses both output sockets to do so and the output voltage doubles. I don't know of any either player at this price point that does that. My HD600s run this way and I have driven my pair of Arcam P1 mono blocs (170 watt each) driving Wilson Benesch Arc speakers with a REL subwoofer in balanced mode too. It sounds pretty impressive with the Pono.
 
So, give it a chance to burn in, it rewards with a sound that is way above its price point IMHO.

In case you are wondering, I am not a part of Pono but have been alongside since the KS campaign and help out on the Pono forum. I am very independently minded - if it didn't sound good, I would say so.  It ain't perfect - the UI is old fashioned, the shape is odd (but functional) and it is a single use device. 
 
best
 
i

 

[FastAndBulbous]

A couple of other points that I think should be made.
 
The PonoMusic World software and the store are still in Beta and should be judged as such. The launch of both, when very Beta indeed, was done in front of thousands of people who seem to have varying expectations from wanting everything to be fully up and running immediately and being very angry/disappointed/disillusioned when it wasn't, to those who say "well, it was an 800% oversubscribed KS project that is delivering a tiny amount late and that is remarkable in itself - and in most areas it is delivering more than expected". There have been some slips along the way, there is frustration about comms too. The only part of the ecosystem that is in finished production mode is the player itself, and as in my previous comments, that needs a burn in before it can be assessed properly for its sonic merits.
 
Pono is a KickStarter campaign first and foremost, it does not have a large corporation behind it, it has been funded by ordinary people. And supported by ordinary people too. That the player was designed by Charlie Hansen is a big thing. And it shows IMHO. 
 
cheers
 
i

 

[flatmap]

FastAndBulbous, thanks for your impressions.  
 
Would you mind explaining more how you're related to the Pono team?  No challenge intended, but  I gather you're an insider... but not all the way inside?  Maybe a supplier or member of the Press?

 

[FastAndBulbous]

None of the above really. I saw Neil Y on the web like everyone else a few years ago and for various reasons to do with my interest in music, hifi and how on line communities have and would emerge (part of my work for the past 30 odd years), saw a pattern that I thought was worth tracking. KS Pono campaign launched, I am a backer on quite a few projects including some other music related ones and got an email the day the Pono campaign launched. Pledged for a Neil Young LE on day one and thought that was that and decided to keep an eye on how it developed. Took part in the Comments Section on KS like everyone else and formed a relationship with a few others on there. One of them decided to put a Pono forum together, which I thought was the right thing to do, so I volunteered to help out. This was maybe April of this year. That led to Pono approaching us to see if we could help them with their on line community, which we did. Helped to scope the codes of conduct, structure (within the constraints of their chosen platform) and then help out moderating. Also help out with some testing, hence my views on the player and such like. I am independent of Pono but work closely with them and am visible as such. My real name is Ian K - you will find me there, nothing hidden.
 
To fill in a bit more detail, I am a life long music lover, been playing with hifi for 45 years, had a career in technology. Am also a vinyl nerd (done the Linn thing, now have a Michell Gyrodec SE with a good arm and cartridge), have been a broadcaster on music stuff (but that was quite some time ago) and now only work for things that I believe have the potential to do some good in the world. I think Pono falls into that category for lots of reasons, only some of which are to do with music. I make no secret that I like what Neil Y stands for and the way he stands for it. His music may not be to everyone's taste but his ability, will and determination to speak truth to power is proven I think.
 
Whether the whole Pono thing will succeed is a question that has no simple answers. Neil Y's promise and the legacy he wants to leave is to give us back the music that we lost when digital arrived. It may sound naïve and crass, but he means it. And I think he may just do it. The combination of the player and the Etys, for around $500 all in surpasses most things I have heard in its ability to turn digital into music that compels me to move. It took a while for it to do that - for some folk the whole notion of burn in is hocus pocus, but it isn't for me. Not just for Pono, but generally. And especially for those bits of kit that use discreet components as Pono does. I really don't care what it looks like or how basic its functions may be. If it gives me music that is all I ask for. The A&K 120 does a whole stack more in terms of function, I got one maybe 18 months ago and  thought it great. But it is now up for grabs, which should tell you how I feel. I was dreading Pono delivering a dud, I don't think it has. There are lots of teething troubles with software, comms and organisation that need to be sorted, but it is only 7 months old. 
 
Hope that answers your question?

 

[Abstraction]

It is hard enough for a startup, even with venture capital behind it, to get out a good, electronic device. If Pono has done that, it is very exciting.  Several people have been disappointed in the music service.  This is immensely more difficult than getting out a good electronic device, expecially for a company that is openly intended to serve the music and the musicians.  The legal situation is extremely complicable, and there has been little progress toward solving the problems.  The big music publishers have the entire situation legally controlled.  Both the musicians and the audience are losers.  What needs to be done--and this will be difficult--is to get a system in place that allows the musicians to make a fair amount of the money and make music affordable to the audience.  The music companies do very little, but they rake in an unfair amount of the money.  The big music companies and the other big corporations are entirely in control in of the legistlative, regulatory, and legal systems. We get screwed when we buy music and when we buy groceries. There is no reason to believe that this situaion will not get worse. 

 

[FastAndBulbous]

Abstraction - All fair points. I think whether Pono has got a good device depends on how you judge it. Bells and whistles? Not many. Super tech production engineering? It's good enough. Super small device? Nope. Massive storage? Er... Nope. 192GBYte max with a 128GByte card. If that is the basis of judgement no one is going to get too excited - it is competent though. But then I judge a source by how good it is as a source component and on that basis it delivers I think.

As for the record companies.... Can't argue with you. The deal with Pono seems different though. It may take time for it to all filter through. And the selection of musicians that Neil Y has aligned with Pono is impressive - he is hugely respected and it shows. There is a disintermediation thing going on - is early days yet, but that seems like it is part of the mix too. And I suspect that supporting up and coming artists may well be part of it. 
 
I'd rather the Pono way than the Apple way though.

 

[flatmap]

FastAndBulbous, thanks very much for sharing your background and interests.  
 
I'm keen to try out my headphone collection, including my etymotic hf-5's on the pono player. Also very much want to
check out balanced operation with my Senn HD 650.... 

 

[FastAndBulbous]

Flatmap - Balanced mode works well on my 600s although I find them and the 650s a bit too 'polite' and safe for my tastes. Balanced mode works fine with them and is worthwhile,  although you will need custom cables. We have the pin outs on the Pono forum - needed because AFAIK (?) the Pono has a unique output configuration. 

 

[ab_ba]

Hey FastAndBulbous and Abstraction, I appreciate your comments about Neil Young and the Pono vision, up against the labels. I'm sure you're right.
 
I've wondered for months, why do hi-res downloads cost more than iTunes downloads? What drives the cost? Is it the labels, the Pono team, or the artists? 
 
I doubt it's the artists - I believe they really want to have their music heard, and in the way they intended it.
 
I actually doubt it's Neil Young or the Pono team. Mr. Young has been tremendously generous for years - with music fans and artists alike. His music, first and foremost, but also, Bridge School, his peace advocacy, etc etc. This is not a man who wants or needs to profit off of sales of other artists' albums. I think the whole Pono team is aligned with his vision.
 
Is it the labels? They are certainly the prime suspects, based on their past performance: squeezing artists, jacking up CD prices, compressing music so it sounds better from a quick listen on the radio and thus sells more. If it is them, how come they have so much clout in setting the price on hi-res downloads? How come Pono can't strike the same type of deal that Apple has? Or, Spotify? Heck, delivering the studio master to listeners costs the labels less than delivering an mp3 that still sounds okay. Deliver a better product for the same price (ok, maybe ~15% more) and everybody wins. 
 
Neil Young and the Pono team are probably the only ones in a position to stand up to the labels on pricing for hi-res. Apple so far has failed to rise to the occasion. I hope they fight for this, because it will be good for all - artists, fans, and labels alike - if hi-res catches on. People will buy more music, because it's more enjoyable, and even if the profit on individual units go down, they will more than make it up in quantity. Overcharging for anything just creates black markets. The Kickstarter campaign sent a strong message - we want this! We are prepared to support it! I'd say the fate of Pono, and perhaps high-quality digital music overall, hinges on the ability of Mr. Young's team to convince the record labels to not make the same mistakes they made in the 90s that led to the death of CD sales. Price hi-res, high-quality music competitively, and the project will succeed.

 

[FastAndBulbous]

Ab_ba, I think you are right in what you say. 
 
The record labels contractual strangle holds are well known. Hi-res has higher perceived value and is still early adopter market, so they can charge more for it. That would be their logic I suspect. Nothing to do with the technology. Apple are going down the streaming route - general opinion is that that was what the Beats acquisition was all about.
 
Another part of what Pono is all about is getting the best available versions of everything out there, whatever 'the best version' is. Much talk of Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden as an example. Was laid down in 16/44.1 (maybe 48?) as I recall so all of the SACD/DVDa recording are no better. All I want is a straight dump of the master tapes, with no 'making it better' involved. Provenance is what Pono is promising. I am tired of buying the same thing over and over as 'new and improved' (how I hate that oxymoronic phrase, or is that a non sequitir?) versions are released. Like a sucker (there's a pun there) I will buy the Beefheart re-issue that comes out in a few days time, three of my favourite albums. I am hoping (but so far there is no sign of it) that they will release hi res versions too. What I really want is the treatment that was given to Nick Drake's three albums. Straight digitised at 24/96 from the master tapes, and issued on 180gvinyl in a nice box. Final version I have to buy, the rest are redundant. Hi res offers the end of that chain and will scare the pants off the record companies for that reason. Their entire business model is up for grabs. And as new artists come along they don't have to conform to that system. Pono (and I am sure others) offers a way of busting all of that. 
 
We live in interesting times...