[doctorjazz]

I think we've now drifted into "Science" thread territory, with people restating their old, tired positions. We get it, but it doesn't belong on the Pono thread (thought it would get these eventually), please take it back to "science".

 

[Ruben123]

So we can discuss the Pono and highres until it doesn't meet your views anymore? I've given you several links, have you already read them?

 

[H20Fidelity]

So we can discuss the Pono and highres until it doesn't meet your views anymore? I've given you several links, have you already read them?

 
Sorry Ruben, while I respect all members all I've seen you do the last few weeks/months is run around with your opinions on sound science, here, in the AK380 thread giving members a hard time and gosh know where else.
 
Give it a rest mate, please?, its becoming a little irritating. There is a sound science section for a reason, you guys can speak all you want there about everything.
 
No disrespect friend, just pointing out what I'm seeing. 

 

[doctorjazz]

Absolutely, politics, religion, and Audiophilia seem to generate "discussions" where everyone just talks at/past each other, and nothing except bad feelings is the result.

 

[haiku]

Absolutely, politics, religion, and Audiophilia seem to generate "discussions" where everyone just talks at/past each other, and nothing except bad feelings is the result.

No bad feelings, I just think Neil Young, Charlie Hanson and others who are involved in bringing High Res Music to the people deserve respect for their service. 

 
Back on topic!  

 

[Ruben123]

   
Sorry Ruben, while I respect all members all I've seen you do the last few weeks/months is run around with your opinions on sound science, here, in the AK380 thread giving members a hard time and gosh know where else.
 
Give it a rest mate, please?, its becoming a little irritating. There is a sound science section for a reason, you guys can speak all you want there about everything.
 
No disrespect friend, just pointing out what I'm seeing. 

Hey H20
Irritating surely is not my intention, I try to be a bit enlightening in this threads, trying to offer some balance. These threads are full of opinions, all subjective-based talks which is great but doesnt make all what is said true.
 
Now Im not here to discuss in lengths of days about high res etc, I want to add balance by objective facts (and protect potential buyers). Fact is, for example, people cant hear above 20.000Hz and after 30 years of age you might be very pleased to hear 18k. Dont all just go tell that you find (opinion) high res so much better than just cd quality, because that is a lie you might not be aware of (!). People interested in buying a Pono might not know that (and many owners too, but for them its already "too late" if they have it because of the high res) but I hope to get them thinking by some of my posts.
 
Now I wont go into discussion about all this, but the fact is that the human brain is quite stupid. Sighted tests (oh right now im listening to 24 bit, wow it sounds so great and oh this song is only mp3, yeah it is really bad) are known to trick everybody and doing good blind tests are hard, even more so for people who might not know it is really needed to evaluate gear and just doing it for fun. Many of the so called night and day differences vanish when closing your eyes and it is really sad that that belongs to the sound science threads only, because many people reading this forums make their choices on peoples opinions which sometimes have no meaning because their sighted tests make the results so bad.  
 
I hope you now get my point too, it' s mostly for protecting potential buyers while many of you might not even think that might be needed. To my opinion though, having to use high res on a 2014's music player because the filter in it takes away some of the treble in 44/16 is ridiculous.
 
And by that, (ladies and) gentleman, I will take a step back again from this thread to prevent any wars to happen. (Sokrates is killed too because of his nice intentions that were not really accepted by men that time)
 
Hereby I invite all of you to discuss about the science of the Pono in this thread, will be watching that instead: http://www.head-fi.org/t/717836/the-scientific-merit-of-pono/300

 

[_gl]

  I get what you´re saying and I think it´s spot on, but I paid a lot of money for all those aac files from iTunes. I got nothing for free.

 
Sure, that's why I said it's only similar to the bigger mainstream music devaluation, but the principle is the same.  To me it's not about money (that's just a reflection of how many people think now).  Investing time, enthusiasm, care etc. is what makes things seem special in the end.
 
> My point is, that while an ABX Test may show you that you can´t differentiate between mp3/aac/lossless in a blind test, THIS SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE LONG TERM EFFECT MP3/AAC HAS ON YOUR LISTENING! For me, listening to aac for 10 years resulted in me almost losing interest in music altogether!!! Now, thanks to High Res Music and Gear, I´ve completely recovered and have my passion for music back.
 
I think this is a really valid point and what I was getting at.  This is the bit you can't easily measure.
 
@Ruben123, as I said, for my money the native 192k version of Heart of Gold sounds different and better than my 44k upsampled version.  So this is not just about the treble rolloff.  I agree there's no point going 'round in circles about it here (you really need to hear it and make your own mind up), and you can be sceptical and assume Neil & crew are deliberately massaging their Revealer files to give the wrong impression.  I can't disprove that until I've tried it with my own material (I don't have anything 192k right now), but it seems unlikely.  Neil doesn't strike me as a master criminal or total cynic.

 

[doctorjazz]

That is always the part that gets to me in these discussions...99 times out of 100 the people coming down on he rez, better gear, etc, HAVEN'T EVER LISTENED TO THE GEAR THEY ARE CRITICIZING! That's not science, at least the way I learned it...

 

[haiku]

That is always the part that gets to me in these discussions...99 times out of 100 the people coming down on he rez, better gear, etc, HAVEN'T EVER LISTENED TO THE GEAR THEY ARE CRITICIZING! That's not science, at least the way I learned it...

Spot on, Doc!    

 

[doctorjazz]

So we can discuss the Pono and highres until it doesn't meet your views anymore? I've given you several links, have you already read them?

You think you're the first one to post/quote these links? You think your the first one to post them in this thread? You think we're all babes in the woods, and have never heard the talk about hearing cutting off at 20K or the other "science" points posted?
Best to keep it on the science thread, as I said before...Heard it all before.

 

[Venture Guy]

That is always the part that gets to me in these discussions...99 times out of 100 the people coming down on he rez, better gear, etc, HAVEN'T EVER LISTENED TO THE GEAR THEY ARE CRITICIZING! That's not science, at least the way I learned it...

Spot on. Further, very clearly, NONE of the people commenting have ever STUDIED signal processing. What a joke!

 

[_gl]

  While we are on the topic, how about ringing from feedback loops in normal solid state amplifiers? Why has Charlie Hansen been adamant about zero feedback amps since I met him some decades ago?

 
I'd be interested in that too, unfortunately I know nothing about audio circuit design, I'm more a software guy.  I have done a few digital circuits with microcontrollers, but that's very different to analogue audio.
 
I'm fascinated by the Pono teardown Mike Beauchamp posted, that shows an intriguing audio path with tons of discrete transistors near the outputs (5:30 in the video): http://mikebeauchamp.com/2014/12/pono-player-teardown/

 

[Venture Guy]

Here is a picture of what happens in abstract: http://microchip.wikidot.com/asp0107:settling-time-overshoot. Ringing! Many, including Charlie, think that this is the cause for the "solid-state sound" of solid-state amps. Open loop, zero feedback, doesn't ring. Higher end tube amps tend towards zero feedback and that's why people like the sound. The Pono is the only DAP I know of that employs a zero feedback design. Hence the liquid tube-like sound... WHEN IT IS FULLY BURNED-IN!!!

 

[_gl]

Thanks, now I get what a zero-feedback audio path is.
 
The more I listen to it, the more I appreciate the majority of the sound - it's very even, smooth, clear, bass response too  - except for the damn 44k treble loss.
 
To me that sounds like my hearing is slightly damaged (or probably what it will be like in a decade or so 

).
 
You know, that bit after your mid-life crisis, when you just give up and settle for 'easy' and 'comfortable'.   Hell no!  Rage against the dying of the light!

  

.

 

[Venture Guy]

  Thanks, now I get what a zero-feedback audio path is.
 
The more I listen to it, the more I appreciate the majority of the sound - it's very even, smooth, clear, bass response too  - except for the damn 44k treble loss.
 
To me that sounds like my hearing is slightly damaged (or probably what it will be like in a decade or so 

).
 
You know, that bit after your mid-life crisis, when you just give up and settle for 'easy' and 'comfortable'.   Hell no!  Rage against the dying of the light!

  

.

I ended up sitting to a seasoned reviewer and pulled out my Pono. He said, cool player. I said it was the best I had heard at any price. He said he agreed except for the AK380. Most people do not RFM, pull the thing out of the box, charge it up and start listening. They find that it sounds bad... because it does! Upon RFM, one will find that it needs 200 hours of burn-in. Components get knocked out of tolerance in the production process and it takes burn-in to restore them to their target values, which centers bias voltages in the most linear range of the transistors. The feedback mechanism in amplifiers with feedback loops compensates for this to a large extent and that is why you can have a decent experience right out of the box.
 
Remain In Light!