[Sil3nce]

Deleted off-topic and argumentative posts.

 

[thatonenoob]

Why is understanding the limitations of a measurement system dangerous territory? Knowing where you have issues is enlightening and let's you know how far on the branch you can safely go.

FWIW, here is the article for those of you who might have missed it:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...measurement-repeatability-and-reproducibility

At about 3400Hz, things started to vary a bit more than I anticipated and like you mentioned, 7-8kHz + things are very up in the air. Again, measurements are very useful still (all of them, including the square wave plots, %THD, etc...) and should be considered, but again, I can't stress this enough, first hand experiences are a must as this is literally where the "rubber hits the road".

You misunderstand me. Limitations of measurement system is very reasonable, and is a question that we should constantly ask.

However, I took your original statement as being a blanket one where you seemed dismissive of the notion of measurements due to their lack of reproducibility and repeatability. It is clearer now that you were referencing that article in particular, which provides better context (thanks). Specifically, matters regarding precision/accuracy/ deviation (which do not undermine the importance of data-collection itself, rather improve it). Hopefully with better procedures and greater numbers of measurements in the community we can gain a clearer picture of the performance of many headphones.

 

[thatonenoob]

It is the location of this peak as I mentioned. The AKG K812 has a similar peak and due to the location it really doesn't affect much. Here is a great reference...not much happening in this range:
http://djfrobot.blogspot.ca/2010/04/eq-frequency-chart-for-instruments.html

As I said, the 6kHz is troublesome (based on this graph of frequency range of musical instruments) on the HD800...which is why I sold mine and went with the HD800S.

'

yup, I recognize that. I was not replying to your previous comment specifically. Cool page though, certainly very demonstrative.

 

[MacedonianHero]

You misunderstand me. Limitations of measurement system is very reasonable, and is a question that we should constantly ask.

However, I took your original statement as being a blanket one where you seemed dismissive of the notion of measurements due to their lack of reproducibility and repeatability. It is clearer now that you were referencing that article in particular, which provides better context (thanks). Specifically, matters regarding precision/accuracy/ deviation (which do not undermine the importance of data-collection itself, rather improve it). Hopefully with better procedures and greater numbers of measurements in the community we can gain a clearer picture of the performance of many headphones.

No worries...thanks for the clarification of your post.

 

[MacedonianHero]

'

yup, I recognize that. I was not replying to your previous comment specifically. Cool page though, certainly very demonstrative.

Thanks!

That's why regardless of the reviewer (or even measurements), I always suggest a good thorough listen for yourself. You might miss out on a great pair of cans! The K812 have some issues, but boy am I glad I gave them a try...I really liked them and ended up buying them. Conversely, the Abyss have even bigger measurement issues and after trying them several times on some killer setups revealed that they simply were not for me.

 

[PCheung]

Enjoying "Asterism" by ChouCho with Z1R and WM-1Z.
This combo works very well on Japanese songs IMO.

 

[thatonenoob]

Thanks!

That's why regardless of the reviewer (or even measurements), I always suggest a good thorough listen for yourself. You might miss out on a great pair of cans! The K812 have some issues, but boy am I glad I gave them a try...I really liked them and ended up buying them. Conversely, the Abyss have even bigger measurement issues and after trying them several times on some killer setups revealed that they simply were not for me.

Indeed, I love the T1, but it's not a commonly recommended flagship these days. K812 is interesting and nice, but have you heard the 872? It was a mess to me imo. Not sure how AKG decided on that matter.

 

[Whitigir]

Enjoying "Asterism" by ChouCho with Z1R and WM-1Z.
This combo works very well on Japanese songs IMO.

How do u enjoy YouTube on wm1z

 

[MacedonianHero]

Indeed, I love the T1, but it's not a commonly recommended flagship these days. K812 is interesting and nice, but have you heard the 872? It was a mess to me imo. Not sure how AKG decided on that matter.

I'm a big fan of both the T1.2 (owned it) and K812 (currently own it); with a preference for the latter. But I haven't heard the K872 yet.

 

[PCheung]

How do u enjoy YouTube on wm1z

Come-on, I have it loaded on my 1Z
Just posting the MV for reference.

 

[Whitigir]

Come-on, I have it loaded on my 1Z
Just posting the MV for reference.

Oh, I thought I was missing something because I would love that feature lol

 

[PCheung]

Oh, I thought I was missing something because I would love that feature lol

Just if sony make another walkman with wifi and Android OS ....

 

[Whitigir]

Just if sony make another walkman with wifi and Android OS ....

You never known....Walkman anniversary is coming up We may have NW-ZX1R . Sony could still be in the cooking of WM for pure audio quality and NW for audio and streaming features

 

[up late]

I often use them in conjunction, but know where they are there limitations too. Over 4kHz is an area for sure. If you search the site, you will can find my article. I'd share the link, but I'm am out now. That's why I always recommend first hand experience is used together with measurements but in the end what you hear is where the rubber hits the road.

What I hear is a relaxed sounding headphone with outstanding soundstaging and bass. The upper frequencies are more tame and easy to listen to than other TOTL closed headphones with a similar fun signature. The measurements bare this out. The spike at 10kHz is inconsequential as nothing happens at that range. The 6kHz spike on the HD800 is concerning because that is a presence region that can cause issues.

i agree that our ears should always be the final arbiter and that it would be unwise to judge a headphone on the measurements alone as they only tell part of the story. that said, i don't think that the fr measurements actually do support your claim that the z1r's upper frequencies are tamer than other totl closed cans with u shaped frequency responses, at least not on my reading of them anyway. the z1r has more spikes in the higher frequencies than the th900 according to tyll's graphs. and while i find that a bit surprising based on my subjective comparison, i'm reluctant to dismiss them because I might be fooling myself. tho the z1r's 10khz spike wasn't bothersome when i auditioned it, it is well within the hearing range of probably most of the folks who visit this site, so it is potentially problematic for some of them.

but that's really beside my point, which is that it seems selective to me to cite tyll's measurements as an objective data point for several other totl headphones but raise doubts about their reliability in the context of a discussion about the z1r's measurable performance.

 

[MacedonianHero]

i agree that our ears should always be the final arbiter and that it would be unwise to judge a headphone on the measurements alone as they only tell part of the story. that said, i don't think that the fr measurements actually do support your claim that the z1r's upper frequencies are tamer than other totl closed cans with u shaped frequency responses, at least not on my reading of them anyway. the z1r has more spikes in the higher frequencies than the th900 according to tyll's graphs. and while i find that a bit surprising based on my subjective comparison, i'm reluctant to dismiss them because I might be fooling myself. tho the z1r's 10khz spike wasn't bothersome when i auditioned it, it is well within the hearing range of probably most of the folks who visit this site, so it is potentially problematic for some of them.

but that's really beside my point, which is that it seems selective to me to cite tyll's measurements as an objective data point for several other totl headphones but raise doubts about their reliability in the context of a discussion about the z1r's measurable performance.

There is nothing selective at all going on...I have always said to use both in conjunction with each other and I often don't use Tyll's measurements for the reasons given . I find others more repeatable and often cross reference them and compare to first hand experiences. Again at 10kHz, while audible to the human ear, there isn't much going on musically in that range. Lower frequencies like the 6kHz peak on the HD800 can be much more problematic.