We are doing the R&D; we are going to add as much potential for external memory as we possibly can without taking the cost up another $50 or compromising the sound. Don't worry so much!!!
I can say the one thing we won't be doing is replacing the iPod classic. We want to make storage accessible, but our player is emphasizing streaming, versatility, and audio quality above all.
If you manage even a single cars slot, you just destroyed the Classic with storage, 64gb + 128gb = 192gb.... Thats more then 160gb of the classic. Which is why I kinda regret getting my classic, a X1 with a 128, would be cheaper then the classic. With much better sound. The classic really does sound bad on its own when you have the hardware. (My dual Luxman amps in BTL running on Yamaha R-1000 speaker pair) I can run a lossless rip off the iPod into the Preamp line in (out of the headphone jack) and compair it to the exact CD I got the lossless rip from. By gosh does it sound terrible. Never mind trying to run one of my orthro cans
What we're not trying to do is make a cheap DAP with lots of storage that can be hooked up to other portable rigs; if you want to hook up a Chord Hugo, that's all well and good, and I'm pushing for OTG compatibility because I want that to be possible for those who want a solid storage+streaming option or like the form factor and care to do so, but what we're really going for is an accessibly-priced complete package for driving both mid-to-high end cans and high-end IEMs, for use at home and on the go, while giving you access to as much music as is humanly possible.
If you manage even a single cars slot, you just destroyed the Classic with storage, 64gb + 128gb = 192gb.... Thats more then 160gb of the classic. Which is why I kinda regret getting my classic, a X1 with a 128, would be cheaper then the classic. With much better sound. The classic really does sound bad on its own when you have the hardware. (My dual Luxman amps in BTL running on Yamaha R-1000 speaker pair) I can run a lossless rip off the iPod into the Preamp line in (out of the headphone jack) and compair it to the exact CD I got the lossless rip from. By gosh does it sound terrible. Never mind trying to run one of my orthro cans
I think the era of the iPod is nearly over. For the best. iPods were overpriced and rather terrible if you compare them to similar priced HiFi DAPS now a days. Besides..... The Echobox looks like a flask....No more is needed xD
But will it drive teh HE90?
Or better yet, the B34t5 Pr0?
All jokes aside, do you have any idea what the output impedance will be?
Will it feature line out?
One problem I have with the flask design is that it probably won't stack well with amps. Perhaps you should include a spacer or a specially designed case, like the ZX1 so that it's easier to rubber band amps to it.
Still waiting on specs; they're going to do new measurements for me, but everything's down for the weekend.
Line Out/OTG is something I'm pushing for; memory is currently taking priority, though, so we'll see.
I think it will be fine with most portable amps. It's not really super concave; just enough so to be ergonomic, which leaves sufficient surface for contact with the amp.. And there's plenty of space for rubber bands around the screen.
Oh and lol @ Orpheus...HD650s are no problem, HE560s, T90s and T1s sound great, and even LCDs were solid, but somehow I think the real big dogs are out of our league
But will it drive teh HE90?
Or better yet, the B34t5 Pr0?
All jokes aside, do you have any idea what the output impedance will be?
Will it feature line out?
One problem I have with the flask design is that it probably won't stack well with amps. Perhaps you should include a spacer or a specially designed case, like the ZX1 so that it's easier to rubber band amps to it.
Gonna keep saying it...anyone in the LA area, just send me a PM if you want a demo! No obligation to post about it; just wanna put this thing to the test!
I think two full size SD slots are pretty much mandatory for this new device. Otherwise what is its unique selling proposition?
The one thing that comes out of threads on Head-Fi concerning DAPs is that a healthy majority want MORE STORAGE.
The one thing you notice in the marketplace, even at the top end, is a lack of storage.
If this device had 256GB and two full size SDXC slots, it would OWN the market for several years while everyone else plays catch up.
Basically we're all looking for something to move the game on and it isn't this or that high-end DAC chip.
How many years now have I been able to buy a 160GB iPod Classic for £160? Five? Six? Maybe more.
And yet here we are in 2015 and far from being able to buy a 256GB player for £200, there aren't any on the market at any price - not even at $2500, you still have to shell out extra for the cards ***!!!
Come on DAP manufacturers! Up your game. We are waiting for LARGE STORAGE at real world prices. We are not waiting for high-end sound at eye-watering prices. I don't care if it only sounds as good as a Clip+ if it has 256GB of storage built in and costs £200.
I don't need a $450 player with 64GB - with or without slots. It's too much money for a personal portable player. Up the storage and cut the price.
I agree that there should be a 256 GB option and two 2 SD card slots on the device. It may take some work to make it happen. But as I said earlier, 256 GB SD cards are around $100. With two 256 GB cards inserted and 256 GB of onboard storage for a total of 768 GB in their Explorer X1's, Head-Fi'ers could easily carry their entire libraries in lossless format on the road with them. Nothing ever this small and this self-contained could provide so much versatility: computer (it's Android!), DAC, headphone amplifier, and wireless storage device. That alone would take this from just hype to a home-run smash hit status!
By the way, is there any way the engineers could make the Explorer X1 act as a DAC for another device? As conflicting as it may sound, I am a computer geek and I am a minimalist. Meaning, I would rather own only DAC/amp/DAP combo device that can do everything for me than have one more device to worry about and lug around.
I think your appetite for storage is perhaps insatiable, and I hope it can be assuaged by the streaming option, perhaps with time but I share your desire to have the same sound at home and on the go.
I agree that there should be a 256 GB option and two 2 SD card slots on the device. It may take some work to make it happen. But as I said earlier, 256 GB SD cards are around $100. With two 256 GB cards inserted and 256 GB of onboard storage for a total of 768 GB in their Explorer X1's, Head-Fi'ers could easily carry their entire libraries in lossless format on the road with them. Nothing ever this small and this self-contained could provide so much versatility: computer (it's Android!), DAC, headphone amplifier, and wireless storage device. That alone would take this from just hype to a home-run smash hit status!
By the way, is there any way the engineers could make the Explorer X1 act as a DAC for another device? As conflicting as it may sound, I am a computer geek and I am a minimalist. Meaning, I would rather own only DAC/amp/DAP combo device that can do everything for me than have one more device to worry about and lug around.
I agree that there should be a 256 GB option and two 2 SD card slots on the device. It may take some work to make it happen. But as I said earlier, 256 GB SD cards are around $100. With two 256 GB cards inserted and 256 GB of onboard storage for a total of 768 GB in their Explorer X1's, Head-Fi'ers could easily carry their entire libraries in lossless format on the road with them. Nothing ever this small and this self-contained could provide so much versatility: computer (it's Android!), DAC, headphone amplifier, and wireless storage device. That alone would take this from just hype to a home-run smash hit status!
By the way, is there any way the engineers could make the Explorer X1 act as a DAC for another device? As conflicting as it may sound, I am a computer geek and I am a minimalist. Meaning, I would rather own only DAC/amp/DAP combo device that can do everything for me than have one more device to worry about and lug around.
Skrub. It's all about the 2 TB SD cards nau.
2+2=4
2048 gigabytes in 2 terabytes
2048/4=512
5*1*2=10
SD=Secure Digital
6 letters in secure
7 letters in digital
7*6=42
one space in Secure Digital
put a zero at the end of 42=420
420 b14z3 it
4+2-0+1-4+3=6
b=2,z=26,i=9,t=20
2-26+9-20=-35
6-35=-29
10-29=19
tera=10^12
19-12=7
4 letters in tera
7-4=3
No. It can't be. Hold on. I need to check something.
Ok, nvm, this lo... hold on a second.
Did you see that?
No, it can't be!
illominaughty confirmed. Echobox is illominaughty.
@spatzii i don't work for echo box nor do i have stock in it or anything but seriously dude...you have got to try TIDAL they have a seven day free trial?! its absolutely insane and i honestly deleted most of my songs on my phone due to my subscription now....my phone runs twice as fast with the 20 less gigs of music and thanks to my unlimited data plan (which is common in the us) i can stream any song i want, regardless or where or when. (My Math professor really hates that fact ;P) i understand what your saying about 92khz res....thats cool i can't tell the difference between it and 44.1 kHz either . however i can sure as hell pick up the difference between spotify 320 kbs and TIDAL 1411 kbps. or even more horrifying Rhapsody (i know...i know but i get it for free so what can you do?) - sign up for TIDAL thats what !
About time someone focused on streaming as priority. five years of spotify and it took this long? I signed up for spotify a couple months ago and it's the best thing I ever did. I am late to the party. Being a tech head, I feel somewhat ashamed. Makes 90% of my painstakingly accrued hard drive collection obsolete.
I also don't own a smart phone and don't intend to. I have owned the Apple iPod, the Fiio x3, the Fiio X5 and now the Sony A17. Fiio products were sold because they were 1) too big to be portable 2) couldnt stream 3) lousy UI 4) low battery, and even worse with OTG . 5) I didn't need the power of the X5 to run my portable headphones. 6) sound quality difference between Fiio and Sony was to me, very minor.
The Sony player has been the closest I've been able to get to an ideal player. Small, good UI, amazing 30-40 hr battery, expandable storage, 64 GB onboard storage, clear bass. The only thing it is missing is Spotify downloading ability, and I am not paying $850 for a zx1 or $1200 for a zx2 to get that feature. Was initially interested in Fiio X7, but it's price point is also too high just to get the streaming ability, it's still a brick, and it still will only offer about 10 hours battery life.
I am intrigued by your product but my main concern now is the battery life. 10 hours to me just does not cut it for a portable audio device. My ipad gets 15. You mentioned it would be 8 to 10 hours running 24/192 files. I don't own the files like this and find it complete overkill which I am never going to hear anyway. How long would this battery life be extended for MP3 or downloaded Spotify content? Get a bigger capacity battery extender to at least 15-20 hours and I am more interested.
While I appreciate the extra power to run big headphones, I'm using my Sony as a portable which means I'm using small easy to drive headphones, in this case Koss ksc 35's. Wish there was a way to cut the power to the headphones so that you could extend the battery if you didn't need it. 15 mw output works fine for me on the Sony.
I don't mind the flask design. In this day and age where people don't even look at each other anymore, let alone talk to each other I can't imagine anyone caring about what kind of audio player I am using, especially when it is concealed in my pocket 90% of the time. Unless you're actually holding the player up to your mouth every minute making it look like you're having a swig, then stumbling or puking on the guy next to you on transit, who really cares? If the player required you to leave your pants at home in order to use it outside well then yes I could see the problem. It looks to me like it will be more comfortable in my pocket.
I am intrigued. My concerns now are battery and size: it's obviously not as small as the Sony a 17 but hopefully it's not going to be as unwieldy as the X5. I want to be able to take the player to the gym without my pants falling down.
@Stillhart I don't know what to say other than...i would rather buy from a con-man than listen to an honest person who made a mistake get slandered by someone who doesn't even know him...trust me if TYLL posted something on INNERFIDELITY(btw if you need tangible proof-since you love that so much(he linked to this thread-
) you can bet your life he checked out this thread and he sure as hell looked at these posts. so do us all a favor...your not interested in this product? thats cool then simply leave...dont bother this thread with lies and rumors that your spreading around. yeah he hyperbolized - so did steve jobs, i don't see you vilifying him. also a hyperbole is an exxageration made during a time of emotion..according to the oxford dictionary. clearly he was excitable and not only that but he explained the cirmcumstances. seriously dude don't insult the head-fi community by doing something as low as slandering someone who made an honest mistake. also as a salesman as you noted below (don't you have to hyperbolize all the time....i mean thats what salesmen do...its just that the good ones don't get caught)
I see a claim that this DAC is significantly better than the one in the X5, followed by proof that they're EXACTLY the same, followed by Gilly admitting that he "hyperbolized".
Let's check the definition of hyperbole quick: "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
I see nothing in the above statements indicating that it wasn't meant to be taken literally. He claimed it was a much better device and got called out on it.
If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, then by all means do so. Everyone from Innerfidelity can make their own conclusions as well. If you want to vilify me for it, then so be it. But I'm not the one "hyperbolizing" to try to sell a product.
@Stillhart Btw...you sure your not calling him a con-man out of experience? if you work in sales (which i do too btw)(also would like to know what company you work at that has so many reps as even shipping companies like nippon express only have 200 max in each location.) then you should know that mistakes are common and that conning the client doesn't really work, they come back in mass and storm the place. oops excuse me...that was a "hyperbole"...i get excitable when jerks come along and bully people. hopefully you don't go and spread lies about me too...not that i care. have a nice day
As someone who works in the same building as a few hundred sales reps and knows exactly how far they'll go to make a sale, I can't give the same benefit of the doubt. Like I said, you're welcome to your interpretation. I see another skeezy sales guy trying to backpedal when he got caught in a lie.
Skrub. It's all about the 2 TB SD cards nau.
2+2=4
2048 gigabytes in 2 terabytes
2048/4=512
5*1*2=10
SD=Secure Digital
6 letters in secure
7 letters in digital
7*6=42
one space in Secure Digital
put a zero at the end of 42=420
420 b14z3 it
4+2-0+1-4+3=6
b=2,z=26,i=9,t=20
2-26+9-20=-35
6-35=-29
10-29=19
tera=10^12
19-12=7
4 letters in tera
7-4=3
No. It can't be. Hold on. I need to check something.
Ok, nvm, this lo... hold on a second.
Did you see that?
No, it can't be!
illominaughty confirmed. Echobox is illominaughty.
Now... since I've replied to all the comments i really wanted to reply to i can begin with my thoughts on this product.
Here goes....
HOLY **** I LOVE THESE THINGS!!
then again i haven't heard them, but the idea sounds fantastic, so let me start with a list of why's, then ill get into some questions i have, and maybe the one flaw i see (super small but its just feedback...im not gonna ask for it to be fixed, you guys can decide whether its a big deal or not.)
I'm going to quickly list off some concerns I've heard , that i believe aren't such bigs deals (were all entitled to our opinions, I'm just going to state mine)
Question #1 (most frequently asked) "Will there be expandable memory?"
A - Why? i don't really see the point of expandable storage.... i mean i do in the sense of storing high res music, 88.2khz, or 192khz (for those that can hear it, not saying you can't, just saying many of you can't, science proves it. there are however some people that can, only cause they grew up with high fidelity since birth...and i mean like they were born during the middle of an audiophile meetup. if this is true...you looking at 88.2khz vs lossless/flac/1411 kbp vs 320 kbps vs 128 kbps. (look i understand that some people have really tuned ears "golden ears" as they're called but trust me when i say, that the differences between upscaled flac and flac are slight...so slight that only studio's recording them care...and even then, many don't. 44.1 kHz is pretty much the limit that most ears and when i say ears i mean audiophile ears can hear. so when you tell...hey i have 500 to 1000 carefully selected 88.2 kHz tracks that i have to listen with my super high end home-only rig.
..my reply is ....... good for you *pat on the head* you have fun doing that, in the meantime ill enjoy my 25 million (and steadily increasing) high quality 1411 kbps songs that i can enjoy from anywhere i am, regardless of place, time, or event.(again i understand that we all have preferences but honestly..... 88.2 khz vs 44.1 kHz....is scientifically proven to be not noticable...and while i may be insane to buy enough headphones to sell for mortgage payments....im not so open to ignore obvious facts that have more data behind them than IBM cloud servers.
Question #2 (second most frequently asked - kind of dying down a little bit, thank god.) "Why the flask design....thats so...novelty?"
A - Since when are audiophiles guests on project runaway?all joking aside....the flask design?? Stupendous! is what i say. So what if people see using something that looks like a flask? i obviously have headphones and and touchscreen attached to it...(otherwise I'm using the worlds craziest touchscreen gesture beerhat). and if they do believe its a flask...then clearly they shouldn't breed and thats just natures way of telling us to avoid them. In all honesty though...i love the design on the EchoBox...its clean..its modern..and its totally a conversation starter (be it good or bad). I can't wait to get my hand's on these...walk into my professor's class pull them out plug in my headphones and pretend to take a swig of whiskey in front of his face... then when he comes to see me ill be like "whats up proff? these? oh, they're just these new fangled alcohol testers, that allow you measure your alcohol content and also play music"...how wasted am i? i don't know lemme check....it says 0.15....here you try...."oh snap...proff your at 0.50 intoxicated....what did you do last night...." ill prob use them to play tricks on my friends and mom and girl and everyone else...god I'm going insane thinking about all the ways i can mess with people with these bad boys/girls (got to be politically correct you know)
Question #3 "Why buy them at all....?"
A - lets go down a quick list. assuming everything is up to snuff your looking at SQ that is mind-blowing for a portable device that can drive full studio monitors , can fit in your pocket. is under 500, has high res screen and awesome design (thats quite the conversation starter...my swiss army knife can attest to that) brings full android capabilities...meaning using players like neutron and crossfader support not to mention it has native support for high res music and it can STREAM HIGH RES MUSIC. i hope you understand that no matter how many songs you have right now, your not even close to scratching 25 million songs. (i used TIDAL btw and there isn't a song or artist i haven't found yet). also the DLNA feature i mean COME ON!!! THATS CRAZYYYYY. you mean i can retrieve music from a wifi enabled device....like i don't know....my older dap or maybe my NDA setup at home o;!!!?...with its high res 88.2 kHz files !!!!
wow.....its looking like theres not a lot reasons to not buy it.... also when you think of streaming...wifi = streaming................................not to mention, most phones have this really cool feature....thats called...a hotspot...and it allows us to turn our (unlimited data) into unlimited wifi for our devices....in 5 seconds WOW. so my music..anywhere i go. with the ability to drive studio monitor headphones in a lightweight easy to put in my pocket device that has a... touchscreen...android....dlna....airplay....and a super high quality dac and amp........hmm....well...better be.....GRYFFYNDOR!!!(in all honesty though i don't see many problems with this amazing beautiful flask... i love the design, the features are smart and innovative(in a market thats stale and weak) look at the past 20 amps+dac's.under 500...streaming...nope....dlna...nope.......Hi-Fi DAC+AMP....maybe....android....hahahaha...nope...high res screen......hahahaha nope....in this regard this product is what i believe to be a solid winner in all aspects and i really hope to hear more about it at the CANJAM (too bad i can't fly there if not i would personally do a 2 hour video review of everything about them)
Now @Gilly87 i have some small questions for you...
#1 - what will the price of the 16 gb be estimated at? and is there any other compromises except the smaller space..?
i personally have this amount of space of my phone and with all the streaming on TIDAL that i do .. i don't even care.. i haven't event touched my 16 gigs.
#2 - for the review models you guys might send out to head-fiers, how would that work , do you need to have a review website or just be a member of head-fi who's willing to do a review...idunno just interested.
#3 - is this full android or a slimmed down version?
if full i don't believe thats thats best idea...this is a dap thats designed be audio-heaven and sounds like it too...i can't really explain so ill just say that..keep it audio-oriented...i can't stress this enough. other companies have fallen for sliding away from their goal..take nintendo with the virtual boy 3d system. stuff like that.
Lastly...i love this man....keep it up...if it really does come out when you say it might then ill probably be first in that line to buy !
P.S. ALSO LOVED THE FACT that you drove the EL-8's with the Echo's...loving that man and it even drove the LCD-2? CRAZY super excited for these...so now for lack of a better way to end this post...subbed also....GET HYPED
Well @Datstrayan glad to hear that it all works so beautifully for you. Still not clear though if this product is supposed to be only for people like you who have access to a quality streaming service as well as fast enough internet. Or if this is also supposed to be a player for a broader audience.
@Gilly87 anything you can say about that? Who's your target audience?
Well we think of streaming as basically a microSD card loaded with anything you can possibly imagine but the real focus of the player is the sound. We're trying to give the community the best sound in the price range, suitable for driving anything from midrange to high-end cans, to TOTL IEMs. Not being able to use the streaming features would be a bummer, but given that most smartphones have a hotspot feature, I don't think anyone who lives somewhere they get service will have to go without
That said, our real focus right now is the sound, and I personally feel like we earn more than the $450 we'll be asking for on SQ and driving ability alone.
In short, our target audience is anyone who wants awesome SQ on the go for a reasonable price.
Well @Datstrayan
glad to hear that it all works so beautifully for you. Still not clear though if this product is supposed to be only for people like you who have access to a quality streaming service as well as fast enough internet. Or if this is also supposed to be a player for a broader audience.
@Gilly87
anything you can say about that? Who's your target audience?
Wow dude. I dont know what to say...I appreciate the backup dude Thanks for staying positive! BTW I noticed you mentioned a high-res screen; the current version is below 720p so it doesn't quite qualify as hi-res.
#1 - Right now entry pricing is $450. We haven't decided if that will mean 64GB of onboard or 16, because we're still doing r&d on adding expandable storage and how much it will cost. If its not much, we'll probably go ahead and throw in the 64; if it takes too much time, or adds a lot of labor (mostly depending on how it affects the circuitry), then we'll stick with 16.
But yeah, with TIDAL and Spotify, and some kind of expandable memory to boot, I really don't feel the need for much!
#2 I'll be reaching out to a select few Head-Fiers as initial reviewers around launch time, and we will actually be having a raffle for a player to celebrate the launch I'm sure we will need all kinds of reviewers eventually though!
#3 Its full-featured Android with a custom UI; it will have access to the Play Store, but the UI is highly customized and designed around music, not apps. It won't be just a regular old Android screen, that's for sure. Here's a shot of the demo unit's UI:
Now @Gilly87
i have some small questions for you...
#1 - what will the price of the 16 gb be estimated at? and is there any other compromises except the smaller space..?
i personally have this amount of space of my phone and with all the streaming on TIDAL that i do .. i don't even care.. i haven't event touched my 16 gigs.
#2 - for the review models you guys might send out to head-fiers, how would that work , do you need to have a review website or just be a member of head-fi who's willing to do a review...idunno just interested.
#3 - is this full android or a slimmed down version?
if full i don't believe thats thats best idea...this is a dap thats designed be audio-heaven and sounds like it too...i can't really explain so ill just say that..keep it audio-oriented...i can't stress this enough. other companies have fallen for sliding away from their goal..take nintendo with the virtual boy 3d system. stuff like that.
Lastly...i love this man....keep it up...if it really does come out when you say it might then ill probably be first in that line to buy !
P.S. ALSO LOVED THE FACT that you drove the EL-8's with the Echo's...loving that man and it even drove the LCD-2? CRAZY super excited for these...so now for lack of a better way to end this post...subbed also....GET HYPED
Well we think of streaming as basically a microSD card loaded with anything you can possibly imagine but the real focus of the player is the sound. We're trying to give the community the best sound in the price range, suitable for driving anything from midrange to high-end cans, to TOTL IEMs. Not being able to use the streaming features would be a bummer, but given that most smartphones have a hotspot feature, I don't think anyone who lives somewhere they get service will have to go without
That said, our real focus right now is the sound, and I personally feel like we earn more than the $450 we'll be asking for on SQ and driving ability alone.
In short, our target audience is anyone who wants awesome SQ on the go for a reasonable price.
1. There's still quite a few countries around where you pay for your internet and an allowance of 500mb is very common
2 As I said earlier, coverage of streaming services out of the US of A isn't that substantial yet.
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but I share your desire to have the same sound at home and on the go.
