[Me x3]

Nobody talks about how they can't stand the sound of harmonic distortion in a cello.

For whatever reason, this is often forgotten by headphone makers. Headphone makers seem to strive for the absolute lowest harmonic distortion possible, probably so they can quote an impressively low THD number. And low THD is good, if you could lower the distortion in ***every*** harmonic by half, you would almost always have a clearer headphone, with great tonality. . However it is not so good when it throws the relative amounts between the harmonics out of whack. And since the 2nd harmonic has the most distortion, they tend to go after it most. You can have a drastically lower amount of THD if you cut out 2nd harmonic distortion. But it will come at the expense of making the headphone sound brittle and lacking body. This is what happened to the HD800. It actually had so little distortion in the 2nd harmonic that it seemed to lack body. This is why it seemed to sound so great with tube amps, as tube amps have a good bit of 2nd harmonic distortion, but very little higher order harmonic distortion.

I don't think we can leave the audibility variable aside.
HD800 has less than 0.5% total harmonic distortion at normal listening levels, that's hard to hear.
HD800S has higher distortion in the bass, it could be a tad easier to hear HD800S distortion but I really don't get why it's 'needed'.
 
The ever decreasing distortion with orders always lacked solid foundation to me, at least when used without taking magnitudes into consideration.
 
A cello has its foundamental and its harmonics, they are already there, so there's no need to tune the cello harmonics with the headphone's harmonic distortion.
If 4th order distortion is so low you won't hear it, then you'll hear that harmonic on the cello the way it should.
If 5th order distortion is higher than 4th order but low enough so you won't hear it, then I see no reason to call it wrong.
 
The sound of a cello is not distorted since it's the original sound source. It has fundamentals and harmonics, and that's the way it should. You won't find someone saying I can't stand the sound of harmonic distortion of a cello because there's no harmonic distortion to speak of in the first place. It's just the sound of certain cello and that's it. If you want to hear the sound of a cello the way it is then you should push all types of distortions in your reproduction system beyond the audibility threshold.
 
HD800 lacks body because of its frequency response. Simple +3dB broad band lower midrange/bass boost and HD800 doesn't lack body anymore.
My DT880 Pro lacks some body too, and it's FR is similar to HD800.
 
T1, K712, HD650 and to a lesser extent K702, don't lack body, but if I EQ them to match the HD800 they lack body.

 

[fjrabon]

Likely indeed.

And it's exactly what I experienced with the modded HD800 as well. During Last year I lived happily with a Krell KSA5 DIY and it's the first time I can live with a Solid State amplifier for my 2 or 3 hours of daily listening sessions. Nevertheless the modded HD800 does not exhibit the same Distorsion "enhancement" than the HD800S. So I still think the change of tonality induced by the tamed 6khz of the HD800S matters more than the increased distorsion.  

Thks for your interesting explanations about the use of 2nd Harmonic Distorsion though. 

For sure changes to the fundamental frequency response (6kHz peak as addressed by EQ and resonators) matter more than changes to the harmonic distortion profile.

In general when evaluating headphones the order of importance is something like:

1) average volume level - if you aren't precisely volume matching, the impressions are nearly useless. As volume level matters more in subjective impressions than anything else.

2) frequency response - this is really just point #1 but expanded to individual frequencies. The simple volume of individual frequencies will override any other evaluation. Saying one headphone resolves better is very, very hard without equalizing them to have equal frequency responses

3) impulse response - how the impulse response decays. This can impact perceived speed, resolution and even perceived tonality.

4) harmonic distortion profile - the amount of harmonic distortion AND the breakdown of which harmonics it resides inside.

This leaves out other stuff like phase response, sound wave size, shape and angle of attack and driver matching. Those are more complex in how they interplay and don't really fit into a simple ranking.

Most of the audiophile terms we have come from combinations of these more fundamental aspects of technical headphone performance. Most audiophile terms are imprecise combinations of those fundamentals that nobody exactly agrees on (and worse than that, they often don't even realize that they don't fundamentally agree about what a term like "grainy" means).

 

[fjrabon]

I don't think we can leave the audibility variable aside.
HD800 has less than 0.5% total harmonic distortion at normal listening levels, that's hard to hear.

Can you hear the difference between a grand piano and a baby grand piano? That difference is primarily due to minuscule differences in harmonic distortion. About o.6%

Can you hear the difference between tubes and solid state? Under your statement that difference means the difference should be inaudible. The difference in harmonic distortion in a tube system and a similar solid state system (the magni2uber and Vali2, for example)is usually less than 0.01%. If you want to claim that people can't hear the increase of 2nd harmonic distortion in a tube, that's an argument so absurd on its face that I'm not even going to argue it.

 

[Me x3]

Can you hear the difference between a grand piano and a baby grand piano? That difference is primarily due to minuscule differences in harmonic distortion. About o.6%

Can you hear the difference between tubes and solid state? Under your statement that difference means the difference should be inaudible. The difference in harmonic distortion in a tube system and a similar solid state system (the magni2uber and Vali2, for example)is usually less than 0.01%. If you want to claim that people can't hear the increase of 2nd harmonic distortion in a tube, that's an argument so absurd on its face that I'm not even going to argue it.

I'm not sure why you keep calling harmonic distortion to the sound of a musical instrument.
That's not distortion, that's the nature of its sound (fundamentals and harmonics)
 
That's like saying your face is distorted, can't be. An image of your face can be distorted though.
 
You're saying the difference is caused by the slight difference in terms of harmonic distortion values, but that's a guess.
We are talking about completely different amplifiers designed using completely different topologies. Each design has its strengths and weaknesses and we can not pick a single variable at wish and say here's why these two sound slightly different.
 
FiiO K5, Objective 2, Asgard 2, Magni, FiiO E10, Auralic Taurus MK2 all sound different as well, and they are much closer in terms of harmonic distortion.
 
0.01% THD means - 80dB
Try to put - 80 dB in the context of listening to music with open headphones in a room with natural noise floor.

 

[fjrabon]

  I'm not sure why you keep calling harmonic distortion to the sound of a musical instrument.
That's not distortion, that's the nature of its sound (fundamentals and harmonics)
 
That's like saying your face is distorted, can't be. An image of your face can be distorted though.
 
You're saying the difference is caused by the slight difference in terms of harmonic distortion values, but that's a guess.
We are talking about completely different amplifiers designed using completely different topologies. Each design has its strengths and weaknesses and we can not pick a single variable at wish and say here's why these two sound slightly different.
 
FiiO K5, Objective 2, Asgard 2, Magni, FiiO E10, Auralic Taurus MK2 all sound different as well, and they are much closer in terms of harmonic distortion.
 
0.01% THD means - 80dB
Try to put - 80 dB in the context of listening to music with open headphones in a room with natural noise floor.

you're right in the sense that harmonic distortion means deviation from the source signal, and harmonics in music is the tonality.  However, the point was it seems that people don't understand what harmonic distortion sounds like.  While they are defined as different things, extra 2nd harmonic sounds the same, regardless of whether it came from sympathetic vibration in the instrument or the the ring radiatior of a HD800.  They're called different things because of where they occur in the chain, but they are fundamentally identical concepts, thus using one to help people understand the other is completely valid.
 
1dB isn't 1dB, you keep talking like all dB are created equal.  Our ears are much more sensitive to differences in the level of harmonics in a signal than the level of a fundamental tone.  Because we use differences in harmonic content to differentiate voices AND perceive distance.  This idea that relatively small changes in the harmonic content produce large changes in tonality is well understood, because it's essentially the theory in which modern synthesizers were designed with. 
 
We can measure the output from amps.  The only meaningfully different measurement tube amps and solid state amps show is differences in harmonic distortion and how it is allocated within the harmonics.  Every amp manufacturer understands this clearly.  The fact that you're saying this isn't correct is stupefying to me.  You're essentially saying every amp maker is wrong when it comes to what makes their amps sound the way they do.

 

[Me x3]

 
you're right in the sense that harmonic distortion means deviation from the source signal, and harmonics in music is the tonality.  However, the point was it seems that people don't understand what harmonic distortion sounds like.  While they are defined as different things, extra 2nd harmonic sounds the same, regardless of whether it came from sympathetic vibration in the instrument or the the ring radiatior of a HD800.  They're called different things because of where they occur in the chain, but they are fundamentally identical concepts, thus using one to help people understand the other is completely valid.
 
1dB isn't 1dB, you keep talking like all dB are created equal.  Our ears are much more sensitive to differences in the level of harmonics in a signal than the level of a fundamental tone.  Because we use differences in harmonic content to differentiate voices AND perceive distance.  This idea that relatively small changes in the harmonic content produce large changes in tonality is well understood, because it's essentially the theory in which modern synthesizers were designed with. 
 
We can measure the output from amps.  The only meaningfully different measurement tube amps and solid state amps show is differences in harmonic distortion and how it is allocated within the harmonics.  Every amp manufacturer understands this clearly.  The fact that you're saying this isn't correct is stupefying to me.  You're essentially saying every amp maker is wrong when it comes to what makes their amps sound the way they do.

 
2nd harmonic sounds the same on source and on the reproduction end and I agree it can be misleading for newcomers.
Remove the 2nd harmonic to a source, add a reproduction system with added 2nd harmonic and it should sound the same.
On the other hand "extra" 2nd harmonic on the reproduction system (when audible) tweaks the tonality of the instrument.
And then yes, it's the same phenomena as the one taking place in the original sound, but it's extra.
It similar to FR deviations, 3dB extra bass will add the same kind of bass that was originaly there on the recording, but it will tweak the tonality and someone might prefer the original tonality.
 
I don't think 1dB is always 1dB, but as powerful as our hearing can be, some things are still not audible for us.
Some arguments that are perfectly valid on certain domain/range can become useless when we consider relatively extreme cases.
A signal at -80dB is a signal at -80dB, no matter which "type" of dB we are considering it's huge attenuation anyway. Often crosstalk from jacks is worse than that.
Keeping things is context is key to avoid theory derailing our understanding on the matter.
 
Things like normal listening levels, electrical crosstalk, acoustic crosstalk and natural noise floor are often useful to place things in the right framework.
Sometimes doing some testing can be helpful to understand what things like -80dB attenuation sound.
 
No amp maker I know fully understand the tuning of an amplifier in objective terms. They all measure and listen, and tweak the topology in the search of a sound they like.
You can read Jason Stoddart's comments on the topic. They even make some alternative measurements, like particular multitone tests and so in the search of more information from the objective techniques we have today. But at the end of the day they listen and let customers and/or trained people listen and judge the sound.
 
I'm not saying how you should allocate harmonic distortion, I'm saying that at some point harmonic distortion is not a problem anymore, because you can not hear it.
Masked by other problems or because our hearing is not sensitive enough. So when that's the case it doesn't really matter how it's allocated, because you won't hear it anyway.
 
It's not true that "The only meaningfully different measurement tube amps and solid state amps show is differences in harmonic distortion and how it is allocated within the harmonics." and you know it. Output impedance is most of the times different, IMD is different, crosstalk is different, stability in time is different, sometimes FR is different as well, and so on...

 

[JamieMcC]

http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_dist_fdbk.pdf

 

[Zoom25]

 

If you're a Mac person, +1 on Audirvana + Sonarworks.  Been testing it for the last week or so and it's a killer combo. Totally agree with @Zoom25's observations!

 
I'm happy that you are liking the combo. Can you tell me what OS you are running and if you also found differences between Direct Mode ON/OFF?

 

[fjrabon]

I'm not saying how you should allocate harmonic distortion, I'm saying that at some point harmonic distortion is not a problem anymore, because you can not hear it.
 
It's not true that "The only meaningfully different measurement tube amps and solid state amps show is differences in harmonic distortion and how it is allocated within the harmonics." and you know it. Output impedance is most of the times different, IMD is different, crosstalk is different, stability in time is different, sometimes FR is different as well, and so on...

You have absolutely no proof that people can't hear the differences in harmonic distortion.  Going back to your original post, where you claim that .05% differences in THD are inaudible, you're essentially saying that no difference between headphones, amps and anything else in the chain with regards to THD matters.  Because there are virtually no amplifiers that differ in THD by more than .05% in THD measurements.  Your argument is that THD is inaudible.  Now, you may well say that I have no proof that people can hear differences in THD.  fair enough, and going into detailed studies of how we perceive harmonics is beyond the point of the HD800 thread anyway.  So I will leave it there.  But let's be very clear that you are absolutely saying distortion effectively doesn't matter, because .05% distortion is inaudible, and virtually all amplifiers differ by less than .05% in THD.  This is essentially saying that nobody can hear the difference between different brands of tubes.  Any difference between tubes will measure well below the 0.05% "inaudibility" threshold that you seemingly pulled out of nowhere with 0 support.
 
While there are differences between particular amps, the only *characteristic* difference between most tube amps and most solid state amps are differences in distortion levels.  Sure, 2 given amps can vary in crosstalk, but it's not a characteristic of tubes that their crosstalk is worse.  Output impedance isn't a characteristic difference between tube and solid state devices.  And it's a very terrible amp indeed that has a characteristic difference in frequency response.  When I said the only difference between tube and solid state is difference in THD, I very obviously meant the only generalized difference that is characteristic. 
 
edit: and after several various digressions that people in the HD800 thread have complained about, I don't intend to argue this point any further, not for lack of interest, but just in the interest of not having another long chain of nerdy digressions that most followers of this thread don't care about.

 

[akg fanboy]

  You have absolutely no proof that people can't hear the differences in harmonic distortion.  Going back to your original post, where you claim that .05% differences in THD are inaudible, you're essentially saying that no difference between headphones, amps and anything else in the chain with regards to THD matters.  Because there are virtually no amplifiers that differ in THD by more than .05% in THD measurements.  Your argument is that THD is inaudible.  Now, you may well say that I have no proof that people can hear differences in THD.  fair enough, and going into detailed studies of how we perceive harmonics is beyond the point of the HD800 thread anyway.  So I will leave it there.  But let's be very clear that you are absolutely saying distortion effectively doesn't matter, because .05% distortion is inaudible, and virtually all amplifiers differ by less than .05% in THD.  This is essentially saying that nobody can hear the difference between different brands of tubes.  Any difference between tubes will measure well below the 0.05% "inaudibility" threshold that you seemingly pulled out of nowhere with 0 support.
 
While there are differences between particular amps, the only *characteristic* difference between most tube amps and most solid state amps are differences in distortion levels.  Sure, 2 given amps can vary in crosstalk, but it's not a characteristic of tubes that their crosstalk is worse.  Output impedance isn't a characteristic difference between tube and solid state devices.  And it's a very terrible amp indeed that has a characteristic difference in frequency response.  When I said the only difference between tube and solid state is difference in THD, I very obviously meant the only generalized difference that is characteristic. 
 
edit: and after several various digressions that people in the HD800 thread have complained about, I don't intend to argue this point any further, not for lack of interest, but just in the interest of not having another long chain of nerdy digressions that most followers of this thread don't care about.

Well there's more than just harmonic distortion that makes something sound different. If you can hear the difference between manufacturing differences in an amp that causes it to have .05% more THD, then lemme know

 

[fjrabon]

  Well there's more than just harmonic distortion that makes something sound different. If you can hear the difference between manufacturing differences in an amp that causes it to have .05% more THD, then lemme know

I never said that harmonic distortion is the only difference that makes things sound different, I said it's the only characteristic difference between tubes and solid state systems.  Any 2 individual amps may have dozens of ways they are different.  
 
I have no idea what the 2nd part of your question is asking.  YOu can never "hear the difference between manufacturing differences" as you don't listen to manufacturing processes.  You can hear the difference between the various properties of the resultant sound, THD being one.  And yes, I do believe that .05% is absolutely audible, ESPECIALLY in the 4th and 5th harmonic.  

 

[akg fanboy]

 
I never said that harmonic distortion is the only difference that makes things sound different, I said it's the only characteristic difference between tubes and solid state systems.  Any 2 individual amps may have dozens of ways they are different.  
 
I have no idea what the 2nd part of your question is asking.  YOu can never "hear the difference between manufacturing differences" as you don't listen to manufacturing processes.  You can hear the difference between the various properties of the resultant sound, THD being one.  And yes, I do believe that .05% is absolutely audible, ESPECIALLY in the 4th and 5th harmonic.  

manufacturing variances... not all amps should measure completely identically even if it is the exact model, so I guess you can be the guy who tests the QC of amps by listening to them and spotting the one that has .05% more THD

 

[MickeyVee]

   
I'm happy that you are liking the combo. Can you tell me what OS you are running and if you also found differences between Direct Mode ON/OFF?

 
The latest and greatest Sierra since it came out.  After seeing your earlier posts, checked the Direct Mode setting and it was off.
Glad I din't go the HD800S route  Sonarworks is definitely working for me though I'm using it about 50% of the time depending on the mood I'm in. Still playing around. It's good to have choice.

 

[Yoga]

   
The latest and greatest Sierra since it came out.  After seeing your earlier posts, checked the Direct Mode setting and it was off.
Glad I din't go the HD800S route  Sonarworks is definitely working for me though I'm using it about 50% of the time depending on the mood I'm in. Still playing around. It's good to have choice.

Had a play with the Wet/Dry knob? You may find your perfect combination of stock/EQ'ed that way.

 

[RCBinTN]

Unsubbed.
 
My thanks to @ColtMrFire for trying to keep this thread readable.
 
Happy listening, all.
RCBinTN