[donkeywalker]

- Please allow spelling and grammar errors due to English as 2nd language -

I think there is a need in the community to discuss a few very intriguing phenomenons that just started to arise in HIFI in the last 10 years or so (HD800 is almost 10 years old now, can you believe it !?)

A little background - I'm definitely not an expert of connoisseur when it comes to headphones. But one thing I can tell is when I started listening to headphones, things were simple. There were maybe 5-10 major makers of headphones (Grado, ATH, Beyer, Sens, AKG, Sony etc) in the early 1990 and 2000s and each of them only made a handful of headphones with very separate characters. I knew the differences between the DT770s and 990s, or the E4Cs and E5Cs by heart, and I could see endless proofs and discussions to verify common points, or to dispute misunderstandings among models and makes of the headphones. Frankly they were just like cars, the BMWs are always BMWs, and Porsche always being Porsche.

Pricing wise, a $1000 headphone was considered high-end back then, and the makers would go really far to set the elite status of the headphone by giving them special designs, markings, and names. The community also has enough members and enough time to try out each model, and overtime derive consistent insights and discussions around the understandings of various equipments. I felt empowered by the amount of knowledge I knew about headphones by spending a couple hours a week browsing head-fi, and there were some core members that provide consistently high quality insights and summaries to help out those who're new to a certain brands. There wasn't a feeling of information overload. Researching what to buy next felt fun and rewarding (especially after hours of research you ended up buying that best one).

After many years of not spending time reading headphone reviews or buying new headphones. I spent sometime checking out what has happened in the many years when I left the hobby, and I was appalled by the fact that the D770, 880, 990 products line has diverged into DT1990, T90, DT1770, T1, T1.2, etc while the Grado product line is now at 1000e,2000e,500e, and the Audeze has gone through an explosion of new products of endless revisions.

I understand that products need to progress through iterations. The Intel CPUs needed to go from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge to Haswell to Skylake and now Kaby Lake, the cameras need to go from D700 to D800 and D810, and the iPhones update through numerous iOS versions too. But those changes have clearly measurable, dollar value results through horizontal comparisons. The pricing of newer iPhones or newer camera lenses compared to older ones do not change significantly, and the newer ones are simply better.

Now if we look at headphones, take DT1770, DT1990, and T90. These three products have nearly the exact same price point in Amazon right now and zero thread talking about their similarities and differences after 12 months of releases. Same thing to pre-fazor and post-fazor LCD2s, LCD3s, or PS1000, PS1000e, PS2000e. I almost felt that the community can't keep up with the updates of the products. The reviews and discussions on headfi are not nearly as coherent and consistent as before when it comes to opinions, mostly due to the fact that most products can not accumulate enough ownership quantity to establish a fair unanimous evaluation in the community. So I'm asking the following questions that might be of interest for discussion:

1) Do you think there is a Moore's law in sound engineering and end consumer products in audio?

2) Do you think the sound quality per dollar improvement has slowed down over the past 20 years (Take Utopia from Focal for example, at 4X the price of HD800, most reviews would say it is totally worth the cost on headfi)?

3) Do you think brands and headphone makers are intentionally creating confusions around sound quality or to produce too many products models (to expand on this, imagine in 10 years, Beyerdynamic introduced DT9990 which is exactly the same driver as a 30 years old DT990, but because no one remember the sound of DT990, it would be considered as an improvement.)

4) Do you have a harder time comparing products and search for information before buying?

5) Do you think the increasing absolute price range of common high-end headphones is justified (sub $1000 headphones are no longer being discussed much in headfi as previously)?

6) Why do you think the community has to do all the hardwork to breakdown the difference in sound quality and designs in headphones, why wouldn't the brands do these by themselves? (mac vs pc)

Of course there are many more that's related to the above questions, such the ethics in play when writing reviews - we've all seen reviewers who seem to like every more expensive headphones slightly better than the less expensive ones, and data chart showing the ever more increasing price will give you a few extra point. Last time I check the LCD4 is having 15% better SQ than LCD3, while Utopia has 40% better overall SQ than LCD4 according to some data chart on headfi (unquoted).

Let's see if anyone is interested in maintaining a long term discussion thread so we don't forget about history and what happened.

 

[Caribou679]

You forgot about Sony in the headphones great.
Also now they are pushing the High Rez !! $2000 for a mp3 player for High Rez!! As if the old mp3 are no good.

It's a business.

The Music Majors are making $9000 a minutes through streaming.

 

[Audioholic123]

It is a very competitive market. Each company wants to be the best.
These days, it is likely that more money is spent on R&D than ever before, this means better products but a higher price tag.

 

[Muinarc]

3) Do you think brands and headphone makers are intentionally creating confusions around sound quality or to produce too many products models (to expand on this, imagine in 10 years, Beyerdynamic introduced DT9990 which is exactly the same driver as a 30 years old DT990, but because no one remember the sound of DT990, it would be considered as an improvement.)

This one got a chuckle out of me. In today's hype-tastic environment this is 100% possible. Most amp designs fall perilously close to this kind of revisionist history too. There have not been many major breakthroughs in amplifier science in years.

 

[donkeywalker]

You forgot about Sony in the headphones great.
Also now they are pushing the High Rez !! $2000 for a mp3 player for High Rez!! As if the old mp3 are no good.

It's a business.

The Music Majors are making $9000 a minutes through streaming.

You forgot about Sony in the headphones great.
Also now they are pushing the High Rez !! $2000 for a mp3 player for High Rez!! As if the old mp3 are no good.

It's a business.

The Music Majors are making $9000 a minutes through streaming.

Oh yes, and their design too. This NS703W MP3 sounds a lot better than my macbook headphone jack and costed $100.

 

[donkeywalker]

This one got a chuckle out of me. In today's hype-tastic environment this is 100% possible. Most amp designs fall perilously close to this kind of revisionist history too. There have not been many major breakthroughs in amplifier science in years.

I know nothing about amplifier science but it seems like most breakthroughs in electronics are related to size, efficiency, and reduction of costs. It would make sense to say, a $1000 audio component 10 years ago could be produced at $100 in today's production throughput (apply to most everything like CMOS sensors, wireless antennas, batteries etc). So even though the quality of sound stays the same, the cost of producing the same quality of sound should only become cheaper in amps? If the price of high end audio parts stay the same due to the price resistance of a niche market, the profit of producing amps should go way higher?

A theory against above point is everything that could be done in amplification has been tried and done, and the evolution of cheaper but better components have stopped, therefore we've already reached an optima in terms of signal to noise ratio etc for human listening.

 

[donkeywalker]

Adding to discussion

I'm so sick of the pricing measuring contest that is ruining the headphone scene right now. Seriously, this needs to stop. The sub $1k open back market has been almost completely ignored. Over the last two years, the only decent sub $1k opens we have been given are the R70x, DT1990 Pro and the Elear and even then, those headphones have notable tuning issues. In that same stretch of time, the following $1.5K+ headphones have been released: Susvara, HE1000, LCD4, Utopia, HD800s, Abyss V2, Ether Flow, Z1R, Sonoma, Pioneer Master 1 and now the ATH 5000. Notice a pattern? I don't blame the companies entirely. I also blame the people who agree to pay these prices which in turn encourages the other companies to pour all their R&D money into over priced flagships. It would be nice if that tech trickled down into more affordable models but that rarely happens. No headphone should cost more than $1000. Anything more than that and you are just being taken for a ride, sure that ride might sound mighty nice but you are still being ripped off. Its time for headphone pricing to return to sane levels but that will only happen if people stop buying this stupid overpriced audio status symbols. Seriously people, stop buying these things. Force the companies to apply their tech to the sub $1k market. Audio Technica could easily build a headphone that sounds identical to this new model for $800 if they wanted to. They just choose not to.

[Mod edits - removed profanity]

 

[kman1211]

1) Do you think there is a Moore's law in sound engineering and end consumer products in audio?
Not at all, audio reproduction in terms of physical transducers has pretty much reached it's peak and has a while ago. It's more of a factor of small refinements and improvements happening consistently which is pretty much what happens in pretty much all matured technologies. I don’t see any major changes here unless there is a breakthrough. Computing technologies are rather unique in their ability to constantly upgrade at such a rapid rate.

2) Do you think the sound quality per dollar improvement has slowed down over the past 20 years?
Sound quality per dollar is a bit of a difficult one, many headphones have gotten too expensive but at the same time some have dropped in price. But overall it may of slowed down.

3) Do you think brands and headphone makers are intentionally creating confusions around sound quality or to produce too many products models (to expand on this, imagine in 10 years, Beyerdynamic introduced DT9990 which is exactly the same driver as a 30 years old DT990, but because no one remember the sound of DT990, it would be considered as an improvement.)
I believe some are intentionally may be creating some confusion, but it's more the market is booming right now and there are so many new headphones coming out few people seem to have time to focus on the new ones like they were able to in the past. This may also cause many people to ignore older headphones that may actually be just as good as the newer ones.

4) Do you have a harder time comparing products and search for information before buying?
I do honestly have this problem, so many new products makes it harder to keep up.

5) Do you think the increasing absolute price range of common high-end headphones is justified?
Yes and no, depends on the product. In case of the DT 1990 vs DT 990, the two headphones are dramatically different in both build quality and sound. The price increase of the DT 1990 can partially be justified by the much nicer finish and materials used in it's construction compared to the DT 990. Sound quality is a moderate improvement/change over the previous generation, but the DT 770/880/990 are overlooked now in terms of sound quality now because of the newer ones. This isn't the case for all the new revisions of headphones though, some new ones are built pretty much the same as the old ones and have a higher price tag and may or may not sound better.

6) Why do you think the community has to do all the hardwork to breakdown the difference in sound quality and designs in headphones, why wouldn't the brands do these by themselves? (mac vs pc)
Because the brands may give partial truths about what their product is about. The iffy nature of measurements also makes this a bit more difficult as a manufacturers supplied measurements may not mean the same as a different manufacturers. The description of the sound of the product from the manufacturer may not quite be what people usually find the actual sound is like. It's better to compare it to the computer parts industry such as different CPU's, GPU's, etc. where it falls more on the community to measure the performance of the gear as manufacturer supplied performance results may not be what real world performance is like.

Of course there are many more that's related to the above questions.

Let's see if anyone is interested in maintaining a long term discussion thread so we don't forget about history and what happened.

 

[Onetwothree]

I’d like to see bluetooth headphones enter into discussion. Is there a market for Bluetooth headphones at the level of an HD800? Or will audiophile remain a wired affair?

 

[donkeywalker]

I’d like to see bluetooth headphones enter into discussion. Is there a market for Bluetooth headphones at the level of an HD800? Or will audiophile remain a wired affair?

same here. Also bluetooth in DAC. In cars, people are connecting iPhone to their expensive $10k B&O speaker system package through bluetooth with amazing sound, I wonder when it will be acceptable for DAC and headphone to go bluetooth/wireless as a general thing.

 

[Audioholic123]

This one got a chuckle out of me. In today's hype-tastic environment this is 100% possible. Most amp designs fall perilously close to this kind of revisionist history too. There have not been many major breakthroughs in amplifier science in years.

Simple technological advancements in the manufacturing process often leads to major breakthroughs resulting in a higher level of sound quality.
Linn are one such company that have always been pushing the boundaries to produce revolutionary new products:
https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/upgrades-that-improve-everything

 

[Sefelt103]

1/ Moore's law doesn't apply here. Headphone technology is in the diminishing returns phase.
2/ SQ per dollar has dropped like a rock
3/ I don't know if manufacturers deliberately try to confuse their customers. Although they definitely want to
produce lots of headphones. They only really know what their products are and if your headphones
look a bit tired they're happy to sell you another set that sounds slightly different
4/ No generally but it can be difficult because you often get different opinions about the same headphone
5/ There are many ultra high priced headphones, but how many do they sell ? In some ways it's surprising
that prices have gone up so much, but inflation tends to be high. Against this many headphones are
very durable and the market in many countries is saturated
6/ Headphones and amplifiers are too complex to effectively apply standards to. If you look at a headphone
advert it rarely tells you anything meaningful. It is very hard to describe the sound of a headphone,
so they give you a hint, purist, everyday, budget etc. With head-fi you can gain a much more accurate
assessment. Before head-fi people listened to them in stores or risked the mail. It is beholden on the
community now to assess which of the almost infinite combination of factors is the one on sale today

 

[halcyon]

1) Do you think there is a Moore's law in sound engineering and end consumer products in audio?

Absolutely not. There is no underlying physical basis for this and amount of transistors on the silicon side and advances in DSP algos have NOT resulted in exponential quality improvement or logarighmic price drop (nor should they). Honestly, this is a silly question..

2) Do you think the sound quality per dollar improvement has slowed down over the past 20 years (Take Utopia from Focal for example, at 4X the price of HD800, most reviews would say it is totally worth the cost on headfi)?

Hard to say. Would have to see a large sample, incl. low-price headphoness, mid-price, high-price and uber-high end. I think low-end has clearly improved. Mid-price, not so much (guess), uber-high end is almost a new category (sans some old Sennheiser flagships), so there's no baseline to compare to.

3) Do you think brands and headphone makers are intentionally creating confusions around sound quality or to produce too many products models (to expand on this, imagine in 10 years, Beyerdynamic introduced DT9990 which is exactly the same driver as a 30 years old DT990, but because no one remember the sound of DT990, it would be considered as an improvement.)

It is a business. Owners demand growing profits or you are kicked out. People buy "new shiny things".
Combine this with the fact that most manufacturing has moved to China, costs have been driven down and all businesses try to be "brand managing IP-companies, outsourcing all non-essential functions" (to most this also includes R&D). That is, the golden age of deep research, engineering and product development is gone. Now people 3D print plastic crap, slap on a cheap Chinese driver, do a couple of acoustic modelling wavefront analyses on computer and use 90% of resources on marketing, advertising, social media interaction and branding.

So, I think companies are responding to profit, market share and business environment pressures by doing more marketing/advertising and taking less deep research risks.

4) Do you have a harder time comparing products and search for information before buying?

Much, much easier. So much data available an some of it is good quality. 20+ years ago this hobby was very difficult. No availability, very small Internet discussion groups, very little measurements, etc. The only thing easier was the amount of headphones available to choose from was so much smaller.

5) Do you think the increasing absolute price range of common high-end headphones is justified (sub $1000 headphones are no longer being discussed much in headfi as previously)?

Again, would have to compare to cost of manufacturing/shipping/etc and compare to other product categories (and adjust for inflation). I'd say that in the very high end category, maybe a bit. In the mid-price category, no - there haven't been huge increases in quality across the board. Of course, some particular driver types and headphone designs are the exception to this medium average.

6) Why do you think the community has to do all the hardwork to breakdown the difference in sound quality and designs in headphones, why wouldn't the brands do these by themselves? (mac vs pc)

Because sound quality is a subjective phenomena by definition. No two people will hear the same headphone pair the same + on top of that there are source, material, amplification and subjective preference differences.

What I don't like is that many big manufacturers still don't provide basic measurements for their (even highly expensive) headphones and put out fart cannons with insane amounts of audible high-Q IMD resonances, totally broken impulse response and a bass that barely goes to 60Hz before totally falling apart, or do not even attempt to conform to the best psychoacoustic tuning curves. And they still claim all sorts of bull in their marketing, assuming that all buyers are uneducated morons and you can tell them any lies and they will buy them.

What I'm waiting for is that:
- VR audio incl. spatial positioning
- personal audio adjustments based on environment noise and changes to one's own hearing defects (OECD buying public is going older)
- sensors, usb-c bi-directional connections, ability to use several microphones per driver unit
- breakthroughs in material sciences (diaphgragm materials, new meta-material magnet types, etc)
Will push/allow new companies to really push the boundaries for sound quality, personal/subjective tunability and ability to block out the increasingly noisy world (on-the-go, offices, trains, etc).

The basic limits of known physics still apply though and until somebody develops a near-0 gram, pure spheric audio source driver with no geometrical distortions or self-resonances, there's still a long way to go.... :-D