The Lavry DA-10 and balanced grados
Dec 7, 2006 at 5:29 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 28

Genetic

Headphoneus Supremus
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I've done a bit of reasearch about this combo (the Lavry balanced output using low impedance balanced headphones) and I what I have found is not conclusive (OK maybe only in my mind...
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).

My questions are pretty simples:

(1) Do we have members who own this combo (Lavry and Balanced Grados)

(2) I'll open the field to the ones who were fortunate enough to listen at this combo in meets. I'm always a bit uneasy about meet impressions ...
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(3) In conclusion, what are your opinions about this match?

Thanks in advance,

Amicalement
 
Dec 7, 2006 at 11:49 PM Post #2 of 28
LOL....Since I'm the only one replying in my own thread...
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I got this message from the Lavry's technical support (they were amazingly fast in responding: A++)

«The balanced output of the DA 10 is optimized for line level connections
which means it needs to be able to drive fairly long cables with the associated capacitance and other issues in a stable manner. In order to do this, the design has a higher output impedance than the Headphone output.
The headphone output is optimized to drive headphones, including low impedance headphones like the Grado GS-1000. You are welcome to try either approach. I think you will find the headphone output gives much better results with low impedance headphones than the XLR output.

The only consideration is that the DA 10's XLR outputs are actively balanced, so any wiring that grounds or connects output pins from two channels together will result in significantly higher distortion in the output. There are internal jumpers to configure the output for unbalanced operation.

If you are going to use the headphone output, you can take advantage of the balanced wiring of the headphones by only connecting the "low" side of the two channels together as close to the 1/4" headphone as possible. The best way to do that would be to make a "Y" cable that has one 1/4" stereo plug to
which two cables are soldered. Each cable would then have a separate (XLR) connector for the headphone at the other end.

Headphones and speakers are by nature "floating" loads (not referenced to ground), so the only difference between operating them "balanced" or "unbalanced" is when the "low" side of the unbalanced signal is not a perfect ground. This happens when the connection between the speaker/headphone terminal and the ground of the amplifier driving them has impedance greater than "zero ohms." If the impedance is purely resistive,
the level will be reduced the voltage division of the cable resistance and driver resistance. For example, if they are equal (say, both 32 ohms), the signal will be divided equally between the two resistances and half of the signal that is coming out of the amp will appear across the headphone.

What can happen in "classic" three wire headphone wiring is that the finite impedance of the ground connection to both drivers causes a voltage drop that, in effect, modulated the "low" side of the driver. This results in "out-of-phase" signals being mixed with the signal coming from the amplifier.

By wiring the cable connecting to the "unbalanced" headphone output of the DA 10 the way I have suggested, you can gain 98% of the benefit of having balanced headphones without compromising the performance by using an output that is designed for other applications.


Now I have to digest that technical info...
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Amicalement
 
Dec 8, 2006 at 12:34 AM Post #3 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
LOL....Since I'm the only one replying in my own thread...
tongue.gif


I got this message from the Lavry's technical support (they were amazingly fast in responding: A++)

«The balanced output of the DA 10 is optimized for line level connections
which means it needs to be able to drive fairly long cables with the associated capacitance and other issues in a stable manner. In order to do this, the design has a higher output impedance than the Headphone output.
The headphone output is optimized to drive headphones, including low impedance headphones like the Grado GS-1000. You are welcome to try either approach. I think you will find the headphone output gives much better results with low impedance headphones than the XLR output.

The only consideration is that the DA 10's XLR outputs are actively balanced, so any wiring that grounds or connects output pins from two channels together will result in significantly higher distortion in the output. There are internal jumpers to configure the output for unbalanced operation.

If you are going to use the headphone output, you can take advantage of the balanced wiring of the headphones by only connecting the "low" side of the two channels together as close to the 1/4" headphone as possible. The best way to do that would be to make a "Y" cable that has one 1/4" stereo plug to
which two cables are soldered. Each cable would then have a separate (XLR) connector for the headphone at the other end.

Headphones and speakers are by nature "floating" loads (not referenced to ground), so the only difference between operating them "balanced" or "unbalanced" is when the "low" side of the unbalanced signal is not a perfect ground. This happens when the connection between the speaker/headphone terminal and the ground of the amplifier driving them has impedance greater than "zero ohms." If the impedance is purely resistive,
the level will be reduced the voltage division of the cable resistance and driver resistance. For example, if they are equal (say, both 32 ohms), the signal will be divided equally between the two resistances and half of the signal that is coming out of the amp will appear across the headphone.

What can happen in "classic" three wire headphone wiring is that the finite impedance of the ground connection to both drivers causes a voltage drop that, in effect, modulated the "low" side of the driver. This results in "out-of-phase" signals being mixed with the signal coming from the amplifier.

By wiring the cable connecting to the "unbalanced" headphone output of the DA 10 the way I have suggested, you can gain 98% of the benefit of having balanced headphones without compromising the performance by using an output that is designed for other applications.


Now I have to digest that technical info...
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Amicalement



I didn't reply, because I have not used my Lavry in a balanced configuration with Grados. I have, and do, use the Lavry in balanced config with the XLRs on my 600s. Clearly, these are higher impedance cans than the Grados. I found a dramatic improvement in the sound when I went to the balanced configuration. YMMV
 
Dec 8, 2006 at 2:24 PM Post #4 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuterium /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I didn't reply, because I have not used my Lavry in a balanced configuration with Grados.


Apologies accepted....
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I wonder why there's so little info about Grado and Lavry? What I understood from the Lavry gentleman is that they are not a perfect match unless I use the imbalanced headphone jack. I that case I already have imbalanced amps that can do the job quite well.

Amicalement
 
Dec 8, 2006 at 2:43 PM Post #5 of 28
I am intrigued by what Lavry wrote back to you. I wish I understood it, but it sounds like you can get many of the benefits of a balanced sound out of a single ended connection with an adaptor. This intrigues me because I have ordered a Yamamoto HA-02 that I am going to connect to the XLR outs on the Lavry.
 
Dec 8, 2006 at 2:54 PM Post #6 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuterium /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am intrigued by what Lavry wrote back to you. I wish I understood it, but it sounds like you can get many of the benefits of a balanced sound out of a single ended connection with an adaptor.


Intrigued here as well. I have a balanced headphone with an adaptor for single ended use.

I will try to find out what he meant. I will post the result here. (I hope I'll have a result...
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)

Amicalement
 
Dec 8, 2006 at 4:09 PM Post #7 of 28
"By wiring the cable connecting to the "unbalanced" headphone output of the DA 10 the way I have suggested, you can gain 98% of the benefit of having balanced headphones without compromising the performance by using an output that is designed for other applications."

I'm not technically apt enough to dispute this... but I doubt it. Hopefully someone else who is more knowledgable can comment.
 
Dec 9, 2006 at 1:57 AM Post #8 of 28
Hi, I am not overly technical, nor an expert on balanced, but I have done a fair amount of research on this topic, so I'll take a shot at parsing this for Heaf-fi applications. I will also respectfully defer to contributions from Lavry owners or engineering types...

The balanced output of the DA 10 is optimized for line level connections which means it needs to be able to drive fairly long cables with the associated capacitance and other issues in a stable manner. In order to do this, the design has a higher output impedance than the Headphone output.

Most headphone amps have very low output impediance (some close to zero ohms). The Lavry must have a fairly high output impedance (which is also the case with many 2ch preamps, because the designer assumes that the next link in the chain (the power amp), will have an input impedance between say 10K - 100K ohms.)

Without doing research, I assume that the Grados are a very low impedance phone, so the Lavry engineer is stating the DA 10 was not built with Grado-level impedance in mind.

The headphone output is optimized to drive headphones, including low impedance headphones like the Grado GS-1000. You are welcome to try either approach. I think you will find the headphone output gives much better results with low impedance headphones than the XLR output.

He indicates you can try running it balanced, but does not hold out assurance that -- using G1000s -- the balanced outs will sound as good or better than the single end plug.

The only consideration is that the DA 10's XLR outputs are actively balanced, so any wiring that grounds or connects output pins from two channels together will result in significantly higher distortion in the output. There are internal jumpers to configure the output for unbalanced operation.

He states here: 1.) You must use the internal jumpers in order to run the balanced outputs, and 2.) that balanced outputs require separate grounds for both the L & R channels (i.e. the grounds from the balanced outputs should not be shared, contrasted with the fact that the standard 1/4" phono plug is a shared ground.

If you are going to use the headphone output, you can take advantage of the balanced wiring of the headphones by only connecting the "low" side of the two channels together as close to the 1/4" headphone as possible. The best way to do that would be to make a "Y" cable that has one 1/4" stereo plug to which two cables are soldered. Each cable would then have a separate (XLR) connector for the headphone at the other end.

He states that if your phones are wired for balanced (with XLRs), you can make an adaptor that will allow the balanced jacks to be connected to the standard 1/4" phono plug. Doing so would drive the headphones as single end. Your other option of course would be to have the cables re-terminated in a standard 1/4" phono plug. [Bottom line: He saying drive your phones unbalanced, even if they're currently wired for balanced.]

Headphones and speakers are by nature "floating" loads (not referenced to ground), so the only difference between operating them "balanced" or "unbalanced" is when the "low" side of the unbalanced signal is not a perfect ground. This happens when the connection between the speaker/headphone terminal and the ground of the amplifier driving them has impedance greater than "zero ohms." If the impedance is purely resistive,
the level will be reduced the voltage division of the cable resistance and driver resistance. For example, if they are equal (say, both 32 ohms), the signal will be divided equally between the two resistances and half of the signal that is coming out of the amp will appear across the headphone.

What can happen in "classic" three wire headphone wiring is that the finite impedance of the ground connection to both drivers causes a voltage drop that, in effect, modulated the "low" side of the driver. This results in "out-of-phase" signals being mixed with the signal coming from the amplifier.

By wiring the cable connecting to the "unbalanced" headphone output of the DA 10 the way I have suggested, you can gain 98% of the benefit of having balanced headphones without compromising the performance by using an output that is designed for other applications.


This last one is a bit over my head. I'm also not sure why you would get 98% of the benefit of balanced by using a Y cable from the unbalanced jack.

Summary:
1.) If you already have balanced jacks for the phones, I believe he indicates you can try it. He also indicates it may not sound better.

2.) He indicates you can make an adaptor that would allow an existing set of balanced phones to be used from the single end jack.

3.) You also have the option of using higher impedance phones from the balanced outs (like HD650s), or using the balanced outs from the Lavry to drive a balanced headphone amp, in turn to drive the G1000s.

Hope this helped
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Dec 10, 2006 at 9:38 PM Post #9 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwayswantmore /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Summary:
1.) If you already have balanced jacks for the phones, I believe he indicates you can try it. He also indicates it may not sound better.

2.) He indicates you can make an adaptor that would allow an existing set of balanced phones to be used from the single end jack.

3.) You also have the option of using higher impedance phones from the balanced outs (like HD650s), or using the balanced outs from the Lavry to drive a balanced headphone amp, in turn to drive the G1000s.

Hope this helped
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.



Merci Kent!!

So it seems:

1) He is not overly confident about the use of Balanced Grados with his DA-10

2) I spent a lot of $ to get a balanced cable with an extra cable to be able ( it was your suggestion you made a long time ago
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) going back to single ended form,

3) This is what I was afraid of. It pretty much destroy any possibility to get a Lavry economical «one box» solution for my computer.

Well, life is not cheap on Head-Fi....
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Amicalement
 
Dec 11, 2006 at 3:27 PM Post #10 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Merci Kent!!

So it seems:

1) He is not overly confident about the use of Balanced Grados with his DA-10

2) I spent a lot of $ to get a balanced cable with an extra cable to be able ( it was your suggestion you made a long time ago
wink.gif
) going back to single ended form,

3) This is what I was afraid of. It pretty much destroy any possibility to get a Lavry economical «one box» solution for my computer.

Well, life is not cheap on Head-Fi....
icon10.gif


Amicalement



Sorry -- if before -- I lead you in the wrong direction. GS1000s are 32 ohms. Where HD 650s are 300 ohms.

I have never used the Lavry, so I have not really followed the threads on this unit. But my understanding is that some users have reported favorable results with Lavry and HD 650s.

I recommend you try posting one more time (in the amplifier section ?) to see if anyone else can provide more real world experience with this combo.

Based on the response from Lavry, I still believe you could try this without hurting your unit.

Best, Kent
 
Dec 11, 2006 at 3:36 PM Post #11 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwayswantmore /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Sorry -- if before -- I lead you in the wrong direction. GS1000s are 32 ohms. Where HD 650s are 300 ohms.



Dont be sorry for anything (in fact there is absolutely no need to ) because I'm pretty please with my balanced/single ended super cable. BTW my girlfriend when she saw these enormous connectors for the first time said: «Why did you stop there, you should have ordered the big manly connectors....» (She hates cables...
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)

Indeed there is much talk about the DA-10 and HD 650 but to my knowledge absolutely nothing on the the DA-10 and Balanced Grados.

Thanks again

Dany
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 2:59 AM Post #14 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
you need at least 100ohm headphones to be driven from most DACs. it's better to use a good amp.


i always read that using low impedance headphones directly from a DAC is not as good as using high impedance. why is this?
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 10:11 AM Post #15 of 28
I really, really wouldn't want to be the one to experiment with this and my next pair of MS-Pros... I've got no soldering skills and shipping back and forth to USA is expensive and customs are an issue.

We should commission a skilled DIYer with a Lavry for the task. I assume any pair of Grados from SR-125 up would do?
Anyone?
 

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