[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I can discern some sonic characteristic or attribute in a headphone, then I want to be able also to measure and quantify it.

But you first have to show that you are in fact discerning some sonic characteristic.

Quote:

Today, we can measure frequency and phase response, but that is typically done with an artificial ear and not my ear, or your ear. Everybody hears differently and our ear canals are as individual as our fingerprints. Our inner ear's ability to turn those acoustic pressures into electrical signals, and then finally, our brain's ability to translate those signals produced by each ear into what we perceive, is difficult to measure? yes, and completely unique to each individual.

That doesn't matter.

The signal doesn't care whose ear is receiving it, artificial or otherwise. And in order for anyone's ear to pick up some change, such as any possible changes due to burn-in, then the signal itself must change in some way. And the change in that signal can be detected through measurement.

k

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by estreeter /img/forum/go_quote.gif I respectfully disagree that any such validation would change the opinions of the hardened burn-in sceptics, in the same way that no amount of empirical data has changed the stance of climate change sceptics ('naysayers' might be a better term). Once you take a stand on something this controversial, its very hard to back down : its only when the ocean is lapping at your front steps that some of these folk may be willing to admit that 'well, there might just be something to that climate change stuff after all ...'. One of the things I find interesting about anything we take on faith is that the negative camp often puts a lot more effort into denying something than the believers put into supporting their belief structure. If I fervently believe in alien abductions, you can spend years trying to logically prove that the sheer distances involved in space travel make it impossible, but I will continue to believe in something that you cant disprove. Headphone burn-in is still right up there with a Star Trek script for many.

I guess that's why Star Trek has always been one of my favorites.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Once we know where in the haystack to look for the needle, we can train our focus on that spot to find the needle, as it were..

But first you have to determine that there is in fact a needle to go looking for to begin with.

k

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know that there's an easily measurable difference between a 320Kbps/sec mp3 and a lossless version of the same tune. However, I can't hear it. Others say they can. Who are we to say that they aren't hearing a difference unless we do blind testing or something of the sort with the claimer? Afterall, there is a measurable difference, isn't there?

Quite so.

And in fact there was a considerable amount of blind testing done during the development of the "MP3" codec.

k

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif But first you have to determine that there is in fact a needle to go looking for to begin with. k

Please answer at least some of the many questions I've asked you in previous posts, again, so that we can be on the same page. Thanks

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like to ask that you reread my posts again to find what you've missed. I'm not at all trying to prove anyone's theories wrong or right, I'm simply sharing my personal experiences and I think multiple times I've answered your questions. I have established audibility many, many, many times as I explained in many of my previous posts.

Have you established audibility in any objective sense? Or have you only established audibility in the same sense that others have established the audibility of placing photographs of themselves in their freezers, or established the audibility of Machina Dynamica's teleportation tweak?

Quote:

I never said I demonstrated audibility to you, only that I myself have observed audible differences.

If you have only observed differences in a purely subjective sense, then you haven't established audibility in any objective sense and your observations get us no further down the road than the observations of those with photographs in their freezers.

Quote:

I'm not asking you to believe me, but at least read what I wrote so we can be on the same page in this discussion. Fair enough?

I have read what you've written. And nowhere do I recall your having demonstrated actual audibility in any sort of objective sense.

k

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bergman2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're taking two different statements of mine and melding them together ... to reiterate, (1) there isn't a measurement device available for every sonic metric;

That's because sonic metrics, of the type that have been mentioned here, are subjective. So the best one can hope for is to try and find correlations between a given objective change in the signal and the subjective perception of some sonic quality.

Quote:

(2) sq changes do sometimes contain certain ineffable characteristics that are in some cases beyond the ability of equip to discern but nevertheless operative;

Give me an example of that. Show me where an actual audible difference has been demonstrated where there was no measurable differences whatsoever in the signal.

k

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please answer at least some of the many questions I've asked you in previous posts, again, so that we can be on the same page. Thanks

I already have answered some of your questions. Which questions exactly are you wanting me to answer here?

k

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have you established audibility in any objective sense? Or have you only established audibility in the same sense that others have established the audibility of placing photographs of themselves in their freezers, or established the audibility of Machina Dynamica's teleportation tweak? If you have only observed differences in a purely subjective sense, then you haven't established audibility in any objective sense and your observations get us no further down the road than the observations of those with photographs in their freezers. I have read what you've written. And nowhere do I recall your having demonstrated actual audibility in any sort of objective sense. k

As I see it, you don't seem to be interested in an intellectually honest dialog, so I suggest you be careful that your further postings here are not considered as trolling. We're wasting bandwidth and time going around in circles. Let's move forward, shall we?

 

[bergman2]

he's a Moderator ... most don't make threats, they make promises ... and while there are some I would accuse of using their powers improvidently this one appears to be a straight shooter

 

[charliex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't care if you call it a threat or a promise, I saw absolutely no call for it. k

Enough already with the self aggrandizing nonsensical semantics bordering on blatant trolling. Can we please move on.

 

[RedBull]

If there's any burn in effect, it has to be the least impact in the audio chain after Transducer, file quality, recording quality, amplifier, DAC, cable, source, IF any ...

 

[RedBull]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know that there's an easily measurable difference between a 320Kbps/sec mp3 and a lossless version of the same tune. However, I can't hear it. Others say they can. Who are we to say that they aren't hearing a difference unless we do blind testing or something of the sort with the claimer? Afterall, there is a measurable difference, isn't there? What I do find difficult to believe is that what I can't hear would turn out to be a transformative change for another, i.e., from intolerable to wonderful.

I can hear mp3 320Kbps vs lossless

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBull /img/forum/go_quote.gif If there's any burn in effect, it has to be the least impact in the audio chain after Transducer, file quality, recording quality, amplifier, DAC, cable, source, IF any ...

I agree, generally, the effect is pretty minimal, but I have heard a few cases where the effect was fairly noticeable. I would imagine that any improvement / change in any audio system is subject to the inherent resolving capabilities of what's already there to start with. The more resolving your system to start with, the more noticeable further changes are likely to be. I guess I'm getting off track a bit here aren't I. We were talking about burn in of new headphones and its effects, noticeable or not.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBull /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can hear mp3 320Kbps vs lossless

I can't hear that all the time, but on certain program material I can.