[James63]

Well speakers are better in just about every way. The only thing I find better with headphones is detail. Some of the detail is lost in the air between me and my speakers.

Many many speakers in the $3,000 range will out perform most headphones. No matter how much you spend on headphones they have limitations.

Anyway at the end of the day who cares? If you do not have extra cash. Buy headphones now and save for speakers. B&W, Focal, Paradigm, Tannoy, Vandersteen, Klipsch, Zu, Wilson Audio......etc are all good speakers brands to start with.

PS. Both headphones and speakers can rock... save your money and buy more music!

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Well speakers are better in just about every way. The only thing I find better with headphones is detail. Some of the detail is lost in the air between me and my speakers.

Great stuff! The devil is in the detail.

Quote:

Many many speakers in the $3,000 range will out perform most headphones. No matter how much you spend on headphones they have limitations.

I generally agree... What kind of limitations?

Quote:

Anyway at the end of the day who cares? If you do not have extra cash. Buy headphones now and save for speakers. B&W, Focal, Paradigm, Tannoy, Vandersteen, Klipsch, Zu, Wilson Audio......etc are all good speakers brands to start with.

Definitely, the music feeds the flames. But every upgrade brings resolute life and dynamics to the music like watching large screen movies instead of small screen... Again, another conundrum, no?

Quote:

PS. Both headphones and speakers can rock... save your money and buy more music!

Yes! Especially hornplayers with credentials--they'l lighten up and get in a better mood...

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Remember that, master? You coming off as if you think you "own" this thread. You merely started it

I think if I would have left the Word "Challenge" out of the title, the thread would have gotten off to a more civil start and attracted less often contesting banter.

Since then the aim has been to go ahead and find "on topic" responses... as I said in the beginning, I understand that this subject has been discussed before. I am still interested in refining, like the detail difference recently mentioned, a more intelligent way to express the difference I am experiencing.

I have actually noticed an increase in "hearing intelligence" on my part since I have started thinking more on the subject through this thread I do not own, but started, as a part of my audiophile journey enjoyment.

A better title might have been something in the order of "A CELEBRATION OF SPEAKERS AND HEADPHONES", because that is were I am at, in the present season... enjoying every moment of it!

As per gifted musicians, your certification is more impressive than you might let on... In my experience, few musicians are truly audiophiles, in the sence that they understand and hobby with expensive "listening" gear and the like. Not only do you play extraordinarily well, you intently listen to a broad range of music at high levels with both headphones and speakers... Of course!!! Any talanted musician who gets paid to thrill actual audiences would tend to favor what speakers can do for the big sound and lively response speakers can invoke. Even your life's instrument of choice is a historical speaker in of itself, awaking cities, sounding battle cries, announcing royalty, capturing the attention of ears in a way that few other inanimate objects (including speakers and headphones) have ever done...

So, yeah, your credentials are certainly trumped up more than one may have considered... Every note you have blown to make folk weep and awe has come from your very own breath... and you have breathed life into stunned audienced for years and years... You have kind of turned yourself into a broadcasting device as well, if you think about it...

Recently a world renown Jazz drummer (of course he gigged out for all genres), and a very dear friend of mine, passed on at only about 60 years young. Nobody on earth had more true friends and respectors at his funeral... I'd never seen a larger ensemble of expert musicians and the like gathered in one place.

Like yourself, he also was one of those rare audiophiles who owned great gear (in fact he also worked at the high end store "It Sounds Like Music" and was into headphones as well as speakers, owning a hundred thousand dollar electrostatic set in his living room... Which was kind of funny to me, because all I ever heard was live jazz in his house due to all the expert musician friends who would always assemble to jam with him. We're closer than you might think, Testy... It was this jazz drummer extraordinair who set me on the path to high fidelity.

So, though, I "merely started" this thread, it has continued with great interest to me, and against the odds of several hostile attacks from folk who seem either set on edge by the mere word "Challenge" or by some personality disorder of sorts.

When I lost my Jazz buddy, I saw, at the funeral, what seemed to be a dying breed of great American old school rugged musician greats who knew what the stuff was made of. You are mistaken in your quest for my respect and cow-tow-ed-ness if you think that I don't understand a bit about your type of credentials...

Headphones or speakers have nothing to do with my respect for hard working musicians from the old school. I celebrate all three.

But like there is a difference in old school music and musicians compared to the new, there is differenced in speaker and headphone listening which doesn't make any interested party a master over anybody, credentials or not.

Like the wealthy local skiing head-fier said to me when he visited my home, "It seems like everything on head-fi turnes into "A Pissing Contest."... Because one has the added expertise of being a talanted musician, it does not mean that a pissing contest is being evoked on my part. How you have the time for speakers, a vast music collection, headphone set ups, gigs all over town--including the debutanted Black tie and black shoes stage sets, is awe enough on my part to keep the largest deserving ego on the planet happy for years and years. But I still enjoy some of Miles' work better on headphones and some of it better on speakers... I even like some of his riff-magic on particular headphones over speakers and some headphones... But, yeah man, if all I had was headphones, I'd be missing what speakers can really do for the jazz soul, indeed... So what is it exactly about musicianship, headphones and speakers that I am celebrating that could posibly piss anybody off?...


Change the word "Challenge" to "Celebration" and enjoy!

With all do respect, (possibly more elequently endeavored than you have experienced in a thread before)

pendles

 

[dcstep]

Strange indeed, you demand equipment lists and credentials and then criticize those credentials. I didn't mean to threaten your audiophilia.

Dave

 

[dcstep]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendles /img/forum/go_quote.gif As per gifted musicians, your certification is more impressive than you might let on... In my experience, few musicians are truly audiophiles, in the sence that they understand and hobby with expensive gear and the like. Not only do you play extraordinarily well, you intently listen to a broad range of music at high levels with both headphones and speakers... Of course!!! Any talanted musician who gets paid to thrill actual audiences would tend to favor what speakers can do for the big sound and lively response speakers can invoke. Even your life's instrument of choice is a historical speaker in of itself, awaking cities, sounding battle cries, announcing royalty, capturing the attention of ears in a way that few other inanimate objects (including speakers and headphones) have ever done... So, yeah, your credentials are certainly trumped up more than one may have considered... Every note you have blown to make folk weep and awe has come from your very own breath... and you have breathed life into stunned audienced for years and years... You have kind of turned yourself into a broadcasting device as well, if you think about it... Recently a world renown Jazz drummer (of course he gigged out for all genres), and a very dear friend of mine, passed on at only about 60 years young. Nobody on earth had more true friends and respectors at his funeral... I'd never seen a larger ensemble of expert musicians and the like gathered in one place. Like yourself, he also was one of those rare audiophiles who owned great gear (in fact he also worked at the high end store "It Sounds Like Music" and was into headphones as well as speakers, owning a hundred thousand dollar electrostatic set in his living room... Which was kind of funny to me, because all I ever heard was live jazz in his house due to all the expert musician friends who would always assemble to jam with him. We're closer than you might think, testy... It was this jazz drummer extraordinair who set me on the path to high fidelity.

This is a really great point, worthy of its own thread. I agree with your observation about musicians rarely being audiophiles. Indeed some are and those are usually very deep into the hobby, but most, in my experience, are not.

My theory is that they fill in the blanks in their heads. They're more interested than the performance than the sonics. No speaker or HPs can ever duplicate the experience of sitting next to 8 double basses in a double-orchestra or leaning against the wall housing the 32' pipes of a great organ. So, many never are tempted by audio.

Maybe we could explore that more in another thread.

BTW, I like "your" thread. Thanks for re-starting it and bringing it back on topic when it wandered. The similar thread over on Stereophile died after the five active members commented. Notable is the prediction there that this thread would deteriorate to moronic, childish squabling. It almost did, but didn't, probably due to you efforts.

BTW, your jabs are great fun. Thanks for making it interesting.

Dave

 

[883dave]

I prefer speakers, however at work it is impractical for me to bring speakers so I use headphones
Last year I gave my headphones a listen to vinyl through the pre-amp at home, to hear how much difference there was through a better system. I sat down in front of pre, between and slightly in front of the speakers.
It was the best that I had ever heard the phones sound, it clearly bested the system I take to work with me.
What really amazed me was when I pull the jack out of the pre-amp, while still wearing the headphones,(when a headphone plug is inserted into the pre-amp, the speaker are muted) the speakers ramped up to the level I was listening at before, and the sound coming from the speakers was better through the headphone than when the headphones were actually powered

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcstep /img/forum/go_quote.gif Strange indeed, you demand equipment lists and credentials and then criticize those credentials. I didn't mean to threaten your audiophilia. Dave

No demands at all. According to one's own posts, the question of illustrating the differeces in what we enjoy is only being asked for. I am quite happy and unhostile in this land of the free...

I think , for years, the majority of folk will plainly see that your credentials were more than given their due,,, Any more praise would require a cash payment for the effort...

Threaten? I am not intimidated nor intimidating. Niether does the celebration of headphones, speakers, or musicianship frighten me much. the shear tenacity with which I have remained on this thread where all the supremus's best blows have been absorbed without a wrinkle should be clear enough.

 

[pendles]

Quote:

My theory is that they fill in the blanks in their heads. They're more interested than the performance than the sonics. No speaker or HPs can ever duplicate the experience of sitting next to 8 double basses in a double-orchestra or leaning against the wall housing the 32' pipes of a great organ. So, many never are tempted by audio.

[size=small]Blazing balls of fire! This is good stuff!!![/size]

Beyound headphones and speakers, yet still in context, glory explanations spill forth! Ha! Just standing next to a great set of drums with that guy who does the sticks in doubletime like he has four arms blows me away, Can you imagine what this musician experiences live, on stage, suirrounded by the actual unplugged instruments in a near-perfect ambient environment?! Ha. Now THAT's what we arte trying to get close to emulating with our gear and listening experiences, isn't it?

Or do we want some sterile compressed boring cheapo imitation of those live dynamics... Midi anyone?

Yeah, what is "in our head" definitely directs our experience of our personal audiophile journey. Musicians "hear" with or without gear... or they could not "create it" in the first place.

Headphones and/or speakers, in this instance, serve to double check the vision and even re-enthuse the purpose for the creation.

I haven't yet met the musician that wasn't more speaker-oriented... live oriented even more... Except one, who felt the control of the home listening experience could allow one to isolate the listening experience...

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif I prefer speakers, however at work it is impractical for me to bring speakers so I use headphones Last year I gave my headphones a listen to vinyl through the pre-amp at home, to hear how much difference there was through a better system. I sat down in front of pre, between and slightly in front of the speakers. It was the best that I had ever heard the phones sound, it clearly bested the system I take to work with me. What really amazed me was when I pull the jack out of the pre-amp, while still wearing the headphones,(when a headphone plug is inserted into the pre-amp, the speaker are muted) the speakers ramped up to the level I was listening at before, and the sound coming from the speakers was better through the headphone than when the headphones were actually powered

Oh yeah, I'm with you!! There are many pre's that beat headphone amps--straight gain with wire.. One of my favorite headphone amps is a tube speaker amp/pre that I built (kit) and converted for my headphone collection @ 2w/ch, ha! Killer!

[size=small]What a great example of an unvolunteered blind comparison!!! GGreat stuff![/size]

The headphone listening experience became better than before... Ooops, off with the headphones and on with the speakers... Even with hightened headphone listening, and with the headphones between the ears and speakers... The speakers ruled the kingdom infatically... Great example of your experience!

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcstep /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's very old news. I'm waiting to hear about a HP that's superior in impact, imaging and emotion. Dave

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by pendles Some folk have $2500 headphones. Headphones fair pretty well if it takes $110,000 to beat them in speakers, one might argue the generalization. I'm curious about these $2500 headphones. I've only been at Head-Fi for a month or two, but I don't remember anyone talking about them. Who are they made by? I might like a set if they're as good as $100,000 speakers. Shoot, I'd by a set if they were as good as my $3500 speakers. BTW, I've heard some $100,000 systems that absolutely sucked. It wasn't the equipment's fault necessarily, but the set up and room placement. Some people just want to spend money to show that they can afford to do it. They wouldn't know good sound if it hit them between the eyes. You don't need to spend megabucks to build a good speaker-based system. Dave

The same cat who asked for an example, says it's old news. Did I step on your toes in a previous life? What's with the vendetta? I'm not much of an electrostatic fan myself. I have owned the last built Blue Hawaii with both HE60's and Stax O2's, and opted off the electrostatic circuit for highly rebuilt discontinued high end dynamic drivers/headphones that have full bass with clarity and speed and depth and dynamics... But I can't help that that they are my own re-rebuilds and you haven't found them on the shelf to purchase somewhere. You gotto build your own. Didn't you mod Stax's? Should be up your alley!

 

[dcstep]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendles /img/forum/go_quote.gif The same cat who asked for an example, says it's old news. Did I step on your toes in a previous life? What's with the vendetta? I'm not much of an electrostatic fan myself.

Well, it IS old news. Tell me something current. Those didn't match the slam of speakers and I didn't consider them a big step forward in electrostatics when I listened to them.

If I were to go down the electrostatic road again, I'd be using a Woo Audio amp and the best that Stax now offers. However, I had reliability issues with electros. Maybe it was my dry climate, but I kept getting zapped in the ears and the drivers would give up the ghost, probably due to the extra curricular zaps, but I gave up. They DO, when working, really give an incredible midrange smoothness. Still, recently, the best dynamic phones have approached electros, so I'm happy staying in that camp, for now.

My view of electros may be slightly colored by my bad experience. I liked what I heard, but longed for more bass and less zapping of my ears.

Dave

 

[dcstep]

Oops, double post as IE crashed.

 

[dcstep]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't yet met the musician that wasn't more speaker-oriented... live oriented even more... Except one, who felt the control of the home listening experience could allow one to isolate the listening experience...

Man, I hate it when I compose a response, then IE crashes right as I hit "submit." Here goes again.

When it comes to live vs. recorded, I'm in both camps, depending on the genre. For acoustic I prefer live, in person, always. Of course, I like to have good seats, but assuming that, then I'll go live.

For funk/rock/soul I like live assuming there's dancing, women and friends. That makes for a great night. For funk, rock, soul or pop "concerts" I'd just as soon listen on my system. This is mainly because the sound level is usually so high that you need ear protection. Also, the sound men are working on the fly and the mix is often horrible, particularly early in the night. Recording engineers have the luxury of working in a controlled, familiar environment and get to go back and correct their mistakes. I don't mind musicians making mistakes (within limits, it's expected), but the sound man getting the mix or EQ way out of wack can ruin a night.

Oh, I just realized, I prefer jazz live, even if it's amplified. I'm generally talking small club jazz. For concerts, it's subject to the same issues as pop.

Dave

 

[pendles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcstep /img/forum/go_quote.gif When it comes to live performance, I'm in both camps. For acoustic it's definitely live, in person. For funk/rock/soul it's live if I'm dancing or performing, but in rock/pop concerts I prefer recordings. The reason I perfer recordings is that the sound pressure level is so high that I need ear protection. The sound is often not only loud, but harsh and ruined by the sound man's distorted perception of reality. I think recording engineers, generally, get the job right. (I realize they're not working on the fly like concert soundmen). Anyway, in funk, rock, soul, pop, etc. most of the sound is processed, amplified, etc. so why not listen to it at home on a good system? I DO go to live pop shows, earplugs in hand, mainly for the spectical, not for the sound. It's seldom better than at home, in most venues. It's a social event, with dinner before, drinks after and best enjoyed with friends. Dave

Good Stuff! Live performance, acoustic--which has yet to be truly faithfully duplicated with recording gear like you hear it in a room out of the instrument (but they are getting close!), different music for different enjoyment purposes, processing, amplification, home systems, the recording engineer factor (yeah, most are simply amazing), venue, friends or solo, spectacle or spectacular...

I have four cans worth $2500 0r more, according to your old news... Each are single prototypes--nothing else with the same exact build or signiture. But that was never the point. The fact that there are several models that sell for that or more should have sufficed the argument (remember? If the comparison is between a $34 can and a $1500 speaker set, then the comparison should also draw out to a $2500 headset and a $110,000 speaker set, which puts the argument in more perspective, unless you have $110,00 candy money). Most cans in that price range are old news... simply because the drivers are discontinued mystiques. Nobody's fault; old school is just bringing in the big bucks right now.

 

[dcstep]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have four cans worth $2500 0r more, according to your old news... Each are single prototypes--nothing else with the same exact build or signiture. ..

Wow, that's serious. Are you a designer or afficianado?

Dave