[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junliang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Great thread Hilarious posts haha. Personally, I would invest more into headphone for critical audio listening.. If I really do want to use speakers for "real" audio listening, so much more have to be put into consideration. Room acoustic- floor material, wall material, shape of the wall. If room isn't rectangular, how ? Positioning of speakers- length from rent to back of wall, space between each speakers, whether they form an equilateral triangle with you. Is the tweeter at your eye level ? Positioning of yourself- which position best for you, got to stick to the same place all the time ? Otherwise, may not get the 3d effect. Sub-woofer positioning- is it at the correct position ? Floorstand or monitor + sub or 5.1 surround ?- or Floorstand(2.0) + satellite(2.0) + Subwoofer(0.1) + Center(1.0) ??? Do they synergy well ? And for speakers, idk about you guys, but my cdp will be far away from me, troublesome to always go and change cd if wish to change to another song the next second. Much preparation needed. For headphone ? I believe you guys know or more less that the preparation needed is significantly lesser than speakers.. Oh well, a home theater system and a lappy dac, headphone, balanced desktop rig, thats for me.

See, I tend to be just the opposite. I think a speaker setup is easier to deal with. Essentially my computer handles the audio files through iTunes (more about that in a minute), which then goes through an external DAC, then to my sound system. This allows me to use the apple remote on my iPhone and have complete control over the sound. Also, as a secondary option, I have airport expresses set up through the house that can stream my music to the various powered speakers I have throughout the house. The quality isn't there as much as in the main rig, however, I don't have to worry about sitting near my headphone rig and the sound beats any portable headphone rig I've heard. And changing from one speaker system to another is as easy as the punch of a button on my phone. (in fact for parties I can control multiple speakers playing the music in multiple rooms).

Unless you go wireless headphones (and then quality is out the window), I think for most scenarios its much easier to deal with speakers than headphones. Headphones have their place, sure, but I don't think ease of use is a real tick in their favor, or its at least not as clear as you make it out to be.

 

[pj_rage]

I don't think I have ever met someone who denies that high end audio equipment sound betters, or at least that it sounds different.

I've definitely met plenty of people who can hear and appreciate the difference, but don't feel that the increased cost is worth it, which I can appreciate, and I've also met people who have heard both, admit they sound different, but still prefer what would generally be regarded as the inferior setup. This doesn't really bother me either.

I think part of it is just what you're used to, and resisting change. Sometimes a quick audition of something radically different and regarded as "better" can be so different that initially they don't like it. But if they used it for a few weeks, and tried to go back, I think more people would be surprised at what they used to prefer.

 

[Midrange Monster]

My thoughts:

1) Pro Audio vs. High End Audio - Mostly I've noticed the pro guys aim more for "accuracy", neutral sound, efficiency, reliability, etc. Everything is technical to them, the soul and passion not there (as much).

The high end guys, a lot of them want some form of coloration in their sound (whether they're willing to admit it or not). Musicality is more important than "accuracy", and something that sounds good is usually more important than how it "supposedly does sound". Not all audiophiles are like this (as many seem to fit the profile of pro audio guy more), but IMHO the truest audiophile is like this.

Nothing wrong with either. I'm way more an audiophile than a pro guy in that I like enjoyable coloration. I don't mind neutral, but I'm bedazzled by the term "accuracy". In most recorded non acoustic music, how the hell do you place a standard on what things are supposed to sound like?

By the very nature of recording music, you will automatically start coloring the sound. You start with the microphone, then the amps and everything downstream to produce some form of music on tape (or even better, a hard drive, lolol)

Then of course the mixing technician's mix, and lastly the mastering technician's master. Before it ever reaches our playback equipment you already have music that has been messed with a bunch. I've heard of live music that was cut straight to vinyl (live as it is happening!)....but for the most part this is not the case.

So forgetting everything I just said, how do you expect to measure the accuracy of a Fender Rhodes piano, a MusicMan Stingray bass guitar, a Stratocaster guitar, and so on? And what about these same instruments played by different musicians with different amps and tuning settings?? haha.

I'd leave the "accuracy" comment to 100% acoustic music, and even then I think guys who says "speaker A reproduces the double bassoon more accurately than speaker B" is probably full of s***. As much as some people think the coloration crowd is insane, I think some of these people are crazier.

Bottom line, until you can produce audio hardware that can reproduce the human voice or an acoustic piano to fool a human being in another room to think they're listening to the real thing...."accuracy" is a moot point.

Anyways, a chicken & the egg scenario for me. I just ignore it and enjoy the music (hopefully) on a system with "monstrous midrange" as my name suggests!

2) Headphones vs. Speakers - I've admittedly never heard a true hi-fi headphone setup yet but have heard amazing home & car audio. Hopefully I will complete the hat trick soon!

IMHO, hating on one area of reproduction is straight up missing out. The most hard core home audio guys with speakers not only look down on headphones but naturally car audio as well. If you think headphones have it bad, you've never been in the car audio world, hehee....

I could write a book on that topic alone but I won't. What's interesting though is that very good car audio can blend the best of a refined audiophile home setup with a very dynamic pro audio setup for a club/concert arena. It cannot outdo each individually but it can bring the two together in a way that's hard for either to do individually.....and definitely for not a lot of money. The 12-18 db of cabin gain for a car/truck gives you mid and subbass that many home systems struggle to have....of course many systems have this area overboosted but for certain genres, its often more fun to listen in a car than your living room.

As for headphones, it's yet another frontier. I've found those who want to hear everything cannot do it in an environment better than headphones. Even my plain jane MDR-V6s off my laptop or ipod allows me to hear subtle nuances that are tough to make out in my $12k car system or my $5k home system. I can only imagine what a proper $2-3k headphone rig can do in this area!

There are limitations to car audio and headphones that ultimately leave proper 2 channel speaker systems as the champ. At the highest level there is no peer, but this highest level comes at a major price and inconvenience so it's nice to have alternatives along the way.

As I've mentioned in my introduction thread, headphones are where it all began for me. I've neglected them for a long time and look forward to bringing back a 1st love.

 

[SP Wild]

Nice post dude and welcome.

Yeah phones got me started - now I want to model my speaker experience based on the phones. speakers at 15 grand became comparable, at 6 grand I nearly puked. Looks like I won't get into speakers any time soon.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nice post dude and welcome. Yeah phones got me started - now I want to model my speaker experience based on the phones. speakers at 15 grand became comparable, at 6 grand I nearly puked. Looks like I won't get into speakers any time soon.

See, and this will likely anger some on here, I think you can set up a speaker system for around a grand that will blow away just about every headphone setup out there. I think part of the allure is that with headphones you can be at the very top of the headphone pyramid for an attainable sum of money. Most middle class dudes could, in theory, afford like an R-10, a top of the line amp, a top of the line source, etc if that was their only real hobby. The same can't be said for speakers. You actually have to be relatively wealthy to even glimpse the top of the pyramid there. And with hobbies like this one, its often hard to tell if you're doing it for the quality of the sound or if you're doing it to get to the top of the pyramid, because that is what the hobby pushes.

I'm not bashing it as a hobby. I have my hobby, it's music collecting. I will buy music I don't even like, just because I'm a collector. And yes, its a sense of pride when I know I have a bigger, better music collection than some other person. It stings a little, in a good way, when I see someone with a better collection.

The problem lies when people pretend to themselves that it's really about sound quality 100%. Just like it would be a problem if I pretended to myself and others that I really have time to listen to all the music I buy.

Don't want to get too off tangent here, so I'll probably start another thread.

 

[Junliang]

Haha, and in the past, I was a guy that is pro-iem, even iems for home usage.
I was quite anti desktop and anti headphone in the past due to the bulk and inconvenience, but oh well, now I rarely listen to music on the go, wouldn't mind waiting till i get home to them.. *Sleeping on public transport became a habit very quickly *

@ fjrabon
Are you referring to desktop speaker setup or are you referring to true hi fi setup ?
I am referring to the latter, while I believe you are referring to the former..


I have friends who are strictly under the diy category.. some who are under the audiophile category..
The one under the diy category.. has his own ipod modded to a Diymod(I know how to do it too

), created his own lod cables(wires shipped), made his own portable amp, made his own ic(wires shipped), made his own external caps), and yeah, an iem that he likes(not diy-ed though xD)

The one under the audiophile category, everything is bought, those that spells high end and looks low profile and portable are in his rigs
"Diy-ed stuff is usually inferior to commercialised product" << Which I also agrees to quite an extent, but ahem, for cables, I diy them, as they are easier compared to amps and its easier to tune it to my liking.

 

[fjrabon]

junliang, I am referring to both. I have a main rig that has multiple sources that is, while maybe not a TRUE hi-fi setup is definitely well above a desktop setup. I also have a desktop setup (audioengine A2), and I also have various powered audio-engine A5's throughout the house.

 

[Midrange Monster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nice post dude and welcome. Yeah phones got me started - now I want to model my speaker experience based on the phones. speakers at 15 grand became comparable, at 6 grand I nearly puked. Looks like I won't get into speakers any time soon.

Thanks...

You have to remember that it's not all about speakers (or headphones)....but the AMPS too!

SP, I'm 100% confident that if you hear the right brands you will change your mind. If you make it out to CES or the washington DC area, I can point you to a place where you can hear great stuff for reasonable prices (and super duper expensive stuff too if you want....

).

I can't tell you how many times I've heard $30-40k speakers that didn't sound as smooth and musical as a $4k pair of SAP Duets, or a $5k pair of ProAcs. Maybe more analytical and more (harsh) treble, but not more "delicious".

You can start off a lot lower than these prices point too and still have nice sound. Some vintage designs:

Dynaco A25 (warm, musical)
Celestion 100 (analytical, detailed, coherent)
LS35/A (made by a few brands like KEF....classic speaker)

Get a Jolida or Synthesis amplifier and you'll be set.

High end does not have to cost a fortune.

 

[SP Wild]

Sorry guys, I was exaggerating somewhat - speakers I heard were in too small an auditioning room with way too much bass resonance due to it being empty and apparantly some bass traps in the corner. However my 200 dollar speakers with 200 dollar surround receiver sounds better in my small room - but there is a lot of crap in my room - where I can't move - I think the crap absorbs the bass boom. I heard JM Labs and B&W that day - not cheap ones either.

My point was that headphone listening provided me with the means of understanding when something is drastically wrong - If I never heard my phones and had the audition I might have just bought the speakers - having no Idea of the subtleties of tuning and their dramatic effects.

On that exact day I heard the speakers I decided a speaker upgrade can go on hold. What I didn't reveal was that I bought a valve amplifier that very day and hooked it up to my bookshelves - I love this setup. I get the most of the qualities of my headphone experience through speakers at a very small budget outlay - less than my headphone rigs.

I am able to make wiser speaker purchases having being exposed to high end sound via the affordability of the headphone hobby. Speakers being a dearer hobby, I will need the assistance of my phones to aid me in the correct choices and avoid costly errors.

If I want to promote the "head-fi" experience in Head-Fi, so be it. We should be acknowledged as equals in our sophisticated musical demands as those who prefer speakers and also sneer at the less fortunate.

Regards.

 

[nickchen]

Great thread. A bit too wordy around the end though.

 

[nelda]

^^^ x2

Please keep it funny...

 

[Head Injury]

#x. Burn-in Aficionado - "Just download a pink noise file and let it sit for a few weeks."

#x+1. Cablephile - "Sibilance is usually caused by a trace tin pollutant in pure copper wires. I suggest this 99.9998% blood diamond cable and these pure platinum interconnects."

#x+2. "Audio"phile - "Get rid of every track that sounds sibilant. Who cares about good music if it sounds bad?"

#x+3. VALIENTE - "grado sr60i changed my life"