[Neruda]

beagle, do you think the HD600 sounds warm?

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Neruda Since I agree with you that the Cardas cable bumps the recessed upper mids and tames the lower mids of the HD600... are you sure you'd want this effect on the K501?? I'd think you might be better off with a slightly warm cable on the K501, but surely not one designed to "fix" the HD600. The bass and midbass on the RKV is the best I have heard with the HD600 thus far--detailed, cohesive smooth and deep. To me, the HD600 still sounds a little muddy on every other amplifier I've heard it on.

Kelly, I am assuming (hopefully correctly) that the Cardas cable performs more of a neutral transfer function than the stock cable, rather than a filter function as you seem to suggest. Given that, it should likewise improve the sound of the K501s.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by kwkarth Kelly, I am assuming (hopefully correctly) that the Cardas cable performs more of a neutral transfer function than the stock cable, rather than a filter function as you seem to suggest. Given that, it should likewise improve the sound of the K501s.

I obviously disagree quite a bit. I'm honestly surprised you think so.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly I obviously disagree quite a bit. I'm honestly surprised you think so.

So Kelly, what do you think Cardas did, built a filter network in the plug?

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by kwkarth So Kelly, what do you think Cardas did, built a filter network in the plug?

I think they, like nearly everyone else, made a cable that is not tonally flat. Cardas, having the years of experience and expertise he has, heard the weaknesses in the HD600 and manipulated the tonal balance of the cable to be better mated to the HD600. I don't begrudge them for doing so--I think the result came out well.

You do believe there are "bright" and "warm" cables, right? If so, then why would it be hard to believe that someone with Cardas' experience could take advantage of this when the driver is a known variable?

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Beagle Have you heard the HD600 on other amps beside the RA-1? The RA-1 sounded really smooth for the HD600, which surprised me (in a good way) but it really sounded restrained compared to other amps and the bass was really where it was hurt the most. If your opinion is only based on the HD600/RA-1 combo, you may find it changing if you get to hear the HD600 on other amps. I haven't done any of the driver/chamber mods on my HD600 so I can't comment there. The Cardas cable was to me a fairly dramatic improvement. I'm not sure anyone yet has said they prefer stock to the Cardas... whereas a few people (myself included) preferred stock to the Clou.

I have used the X-Cans and the RA-1, as well as my Luxman integrated amp.

I am now beginning to believe the HD600 is very revealing of source and has no particular sound of it's own. It reveals the
RA-1 clarity and the softness of the X-Cans lower midrange/upper bass.

Maybe there is a tendency towards warmth in the HD600 because we prefer a source that warms up the lower midrange (ie tubes), then we attribute that quality to the phones themselves.

This is where the cable thing confuses me. When I hear about "huge and dramatic differences", I become skeptical, since I have never heard ""huge and dramatic differences" in cables and I have tried many cables in my system. Differences yes, huge differences, no.

Yet I would describe the difference with the foam mod as "quite significant" in that the HD600 sparkles in the upper mid/lower treble and becomes more transparent in the lower mid/upper bass. You don't have to crank up the volume to get the upper midrange to "reach" you.

But as you say, hearing is believing. I always believe I am hearing something different. I rarely believe I am actually hearing something better. Not since I graduated to using gear that can be considered "hi-fi".

Cardas cable in Canada would likely cost me over $225 (assuming the distributor EVER ANSWERS MY E-MAIL QUERY!). l paid $300 for the HD600. So you can't blame me for being a bit hesitant and skeptical.

 

[Nezer]

Gentlemen...

There's only one way to find out...

My Cardas arrived yesterday but no one was around to recieve.

I *WILL* figure out a way to interface that plug with my 501s. When I figure out how I'll post instructions here so others can try it.

 

[kelly]

Beagle
I would never blame anyone for being skeptical.

However, I cannot defend the equipment of everyone. I can only talk about what I've heard and what I own. First, I agree with you very much that the HD600 is very revealing of the source and amplifier and that many of the harsh complaints lodged against the HD600 would seem better directed to the source or amplifier. However, I rather think some of your opinions about the HD600 may result from the RA-1. I've not heard the HD600 with the X-Cans but have heard it described as "thin" before also.

The source I use right now is the stock Sony XA777ES. While I think there is room for improvement in this player, I do think it presents a fairly neutral and tonally flat sound. I primarily use two amplifiers--a heavily modified Corda HA-1 (solid state) and an AudioValve RKV II (tube). Some people call the Corda bright and some call the RKV warm--this is bias as most of these people have never heard either amplifier. Neither seem true at all to me. The amplifiers tonally sound similar to me. On both of these amplifiers and source, which I've spent much time listening to, my opinions about the HD600 hold.

Moreover, they held when I listened to other amplifiers as well--such as the McCormack MID (solid state) that I also own and have posted for sale and dparrish's Maxed Out Home Reference (solid state) which we also used with his XA777ES to AB my amplifiers against.

Another point to make is that I also own Etymotic ER-4S which I believe have a fairly flat frequency response. In any of the amplifiers and source above, the Etymotic does NOT have the same flaws as the HD600. You can say the Etymotic is less revealing than the HD600, but I doubt many people here would agree with you if they've heard both.

 

[Neruda]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beagle I am now beginning to believe the HD600 is very revealing of source and has no particular sound of it's own. It reveals the RA-1 clarity and the softness of the X-Cans lower midrange/upper bass.

I'm amazed that you don't think the HD600 has a sound of its own. it's a good headphone, but it's obvious to most everyone that it's colored (like every other headphone as well). it's just that a lot of people really like those colorations.

Quote:

Maybe there is a tendency towards warmth in the HD600 because we prefer a source that warms up the lower midrange (ie tubes), then we attribute that quality to the phones themselves.

speak for yourself! I don't like excessive warmth in either my amplifier or my headphones and believe me, the HD600s are warm. They sound warm to me out of the Max and they sound warm to me out of the SAC. It's not the amp's fault.

Quote:

This is where the cable thing confuses me. When I hear about "huge and dramatic differences", I become skeptical, since I have never heard ""huge and dramatic differences" in cables and I have tried many cables in my system. Differences yes, huge differences, no.

the cardas cable made the biggest difference of any cable I have ever heard. I still think interconnect differences are relatively small, but the cardas made the HD600 sound very different to my ears.

Quote:

Yet I would describe the difference with the foam mod as "quite significant" in that the HD600 sparkles in the upper mid/lower treble and becomes more transparent in the lower mid/upper bass. You don't have to crank up the volume to get the upper midrange to "reach" you.

in my opinion, the cardas cable makes a bigger change than the foam mod. And IMO, I just don't think you either a) know exactly what the upper midrange sounds like, or b) can't hear the gap. I didn't hear the gap for a while myself, but it's certainly there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelly I think they, like nearly everyone else, made a cable that is not tonally flat. Cardas, having the years of experience and expertise he has, heard the weaknesses in the HD600 and manipulated the tonal balance of the cable to be better mated to the HD600. I don't begrudge them for doing so--I think the result came out well.

How would they have gone about doing that? As kwkarth suggested, the only possibile way for them to have equalized a cable so perfectly is for them to have put a rather large filter network into the plug (which is impossible). I think it's much more logical to assume that the midrange gap and the recessed treble was the fault of the original cable, and therefore all the cardas cable did was remove that problem from the mix and allow the HD600s to achieve their full potential (and I think there might be phase issues at work here?). If that is the case, then the cardas cable should work fine with the K501s.

 

[Ricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neruda How would they have gone about doing that? As kwkarth suggested, the only possibile way for them to have equalized a cable so perfectly is for them to have put a rather large filter network into the plug (which is impossible). I think it's much more logical to assume that the midrange gap and the recessed treble was the fault of the original cable.

Then, the filter would have been at the original cable, don't you think so?

Anyway, a cable can produce some eq. if intentionally designed for that purpose. For example with a small filter at the connectors, or using very capacitive, inductive and/or resistive cable, or portions of cable.

The fact is that any minimally well built and not defective cheap stock cable has a frequency response nominally flat, that is, within 0.1 dB from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. Same with phase response.

 

[kelly]

Let me get this straight...
Neruda like the HD600.
Ricky agrees that cables can be made to sound different
and Kwkarth doesn't.

Is it backwards day and no one told me?

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Let me get this straight... Neruda like the HD600. Ricky agrees that cables can be made to sound different and Kwkarth doesn't. Is it backwards day and no one told me?

LOL!

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Let me get this straight... Neruda like the HD600. Ricky agrees that cables can be made to sound different and Kwkarth doesn't. Is it backwards day and no one told me?

I don't even know what to say... Kelly, how could you get so many things so confused all at once? Are you in government service of some kind?

I never said what you said I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Nezer]

I know you know you thought you heard what I said but what I said was not what you heard.

I just opened the fedex package with the Cardas inside... Wow! My jaw is still on the floor. I heard this cable at the WoH tour but the effect just wasn't the same until it found it's way into my system.

It's liek this cable keeps all the stuff I like from the 600s and somehow manages to morph the stuff I like about the K501s into the 600s... This is really amazing.

I'm now set on cables and I have an amp I'm happy with. Time to focus on the source. I doubt I'll get out of that one as cheaply as I have the cables.

 

[fiddler]

I actually agree with Beagle on his assessment of the HD600. To me, frequencies around 200-300 Hz sound somewhat recessed and wooly to me. The upper midrange sounds absolutely fine to my ears. I too am using a S.S. amp (Corda HA-1) and the stock cable. I know this because every time I hear a solo violin piece the upper two strings sound absolutely gorgeous (provided that it's a good violinist

) but the lower registers ALWAYS sounded wooly and even *gasp* viola-like (no offense to violists), no matter who's playing. And in my book, making a violin sound anything NEAR a viola is a SERIOUS violation!

Although I seriously need a source upgrade next (I'm using a Pana 570 PCDP

), I'm seriously considering changing the cable after that.