[drummerman1]

First, why did someone drum up this almost 20 year old thread. Ask your question in the "current" 650/6xx thread, maybe? What I find hilarious is that of the droves of people who own and love the 650, the one thing they complain about is lack of bass. Which is actually true. The 650 doesn't have much sub bass, they have a mid bass bump.

At the end of the day it's all relative to what else you own and your preferences. Some people might say that the original hd800 has too much bass and is fatiguing because of it. That won't make it the case for MOST people even though it might be true for you.

Just noticed this goes back to 2006 ... ! Thanks.

Why oh why.

 

[kestrel4]

Apologies!!! I didn't check how old it was. Oh, dear...
But things improved when I switched off Dell's 'Audio Enhancements' and 'Spatial Sound'. I had disabled that awful Maxx thing long ago.
I'll try harder to check the dates of threads in future.

 

[bagwell359]

It's still an open topic IMO.

Bass is too generic a term.

The HD-650 has an elevation from ~125-350 Hz which makes them emphasize that area. It's colors the sound - bass harmonics masquerading as bass, also makes low male voices too chesty.

The resonance of the driver is quite high, and any attempt to raise the bass output under 70 Hz more than a db or two results in: driver distortion in the bass - and IM distortion above. Once you get to say 4 db bass shelf set at 100 Hz with say another 4 db added at say 45 Hz those effects would become marked and unpleasant.

I favor the 600 over the 650 because they don't have this emphasis in that mid/upper bass area and the hole at 8-10 kHz the 650 has. Like the 600 they both need narrow (high Q) taming of peaks at about 3.5k and 5k (in the 650 - a little different in the 600).

As for bass, you can add in a few db - and damping the cups to cut reverberations helps clean up the result - but its a shade we are talking - you want Audeze LCD or OG HE-6 6 screw bass - go buy them. Also in the 600 I found the CC copper ring mod to hurt the timbre of the can markedly and still not deliver anything approaching significant bass (did not try on the 650 and since its a very difficult mod to reverse I wouldn't). CC makes great cables, and has excellent customer support - just not a fan of the ring mod. I tried every option, and did a lot of work to produce a faux reversion of the mod - and its good enough that I can enjoy the 600 for it's strength is - timbre and musical truth aided by PEQ, and a potent SS amp and a OTL tube amp. Stock with fresh pads its still very good w/o PEQ, but it really does not open up without an amp that delivers current at 300 ohms - true for the 650 and 600.

 

[kestrel4]

It's still an open topic IMO.

Bass is too generic a term.

The HD-650 has an elevation from ~125-350 Hz which makes them emphasize that area. It's colors the sound - bass harmonics masquerading as bass, also makes low male voices too chesty.

The resonance of the driver is quite high, and any attempt to raise the bass output under 70 Hz more than a db or two results in: driver distortion in the bass - and IM distortion above. Once you get to say 4 db bass shelf set at 100 Hz with say another 4 db added at say 45 Hz those effects would become marked and unpleasant.

I favor the 600 over the 650 because they don't have this emphasis in that mid/upper bass area and the hole at 8-10 kHz the 650 has. Like the 600 they both need narrow (high Q) taming of peaks at about 3.5k and 5k (in the 650 - a little different in the 600).

As for bass, you can add in a few db - and damping the cups to cut reverberations helps clean up the result - but its a shade we are talking - you want Audeze LCD or OG HE-6 6 screw bass - go buy them. Also in the 600 I found the CC copper ring mod to hurt the timbre of the can markedly and still not deliver anything approaching significant bass (did not try on the 650 and since its a very difficult mod to reverse I wouldn't). CC makes great cables, and has excellent customer support - just not a fan of the ring mod. I tried every option, and did a lot of work to produce a faux reversion of the mod - and its good enough that I can enjoy the 600 for it's strength is - timbre and musical truth aided by PEQ, and a potent SS amp and a OTL tube amp. Stock with fresh pads its still very good w/o PEQ, but it really does not open up without an amp that delivers current at 300 ohms - true for the 650 and 600.

Thanks for those ideas and explanations, @bagwell359 .
I don't think this is about EQ'ing. It feels like more than just the relative loudness of some frequencies.
I think it is below 100 Hertz, even sub-bass. Very low notes on a piano and large drums trigger something like a boomy rumble that is not unlike room resonance. Could it be the fact I don't have a proper DAC? I admit I am using only the Dell USB to audio-jack dongle that came with my Dell XPS laptop.
I bought the HD-650 to experience open-back clarity (without needing or wanting clinical precision) and this resonance is that last thing I expected!

 

[bagwell359]

Thanks for those ideas and explanations, @bagwell359 .
I don't think this is about EQ'ing. It feels like more than just the relative loudness of some frequencies.
I think it is below 100 Hertz, even sub-bass. Very low notes on a piano and large drums trigger something like a boomy rumble that is not unlike room resonance. Could it be the fact I don't have a proper DAC? I admit I am using only the Dell USB to audio-jack dongle that came with my Dell XPS laptop.
I bought the HD-650 to experience open-back clarity (without needing or wanting clinical precision) and this resonance is that last thing I expected!

Well the driver has a fundamental resonance - so under that you won't get good impact - sort of like a subwoofer being driven by an amp with very low damping and power required. Even worse IMO is that since the driver is flopping around under its resonance its creating IM distortion for instruments playing at higher frequencies.

The cups and headband do have resonances, they can be cut down quite a bit - I use dynamat because its cheap, and sticks well. Blue tack isn't nearly as effective, and sorbothane doesn't stick well and its expensive. There are others, but I don't know them. Basically take off the rear screen, cut small pieces of dynamat to fit on the plastic - but don't cover any of the holes. Don't cover every spot to start. Try a few and test. For me too much dynamat deadens too much - lifeless. Now this is a parallel issue so it will help you I think but may not give you full relief. After that avoid playing music with lots of bass on them, and get a nice planar that plays bass better.

 

[kestrel4]

Hang on a minute, please!
I bought a new pair of expensive headphones with a great reputation, and you're telling me I have to do a DIY modification to stop the most important component from 'flopping about'.
Just to make them usable!
Who does that sort of thing?

 

[Terriero]

Hang on a minute, please!
I bought a new pair of expensive headphones with a great reputation, and you're telling me I have to do a DIY modification to stop the most important component from 'flopping about'.
Just to make them usable!
Who does that sort of thing?

Trust me, is even worse when people here advice new forum members to buy a expensive DAC, AMP or wathever cable they "perceive" is better for a specific pair of headphones...

 

[bagwell359]

Hang on a minute, please!
I bought a new pair of expensive headphones with a great reputation, and you're telling me I have to do a DIY modification to stop the most important component from 'flopping about'.
Just to make them usable!
Who does that sort of thing?

I'm taking my time and experience to explain what I think you may be hearing and what can be done. I didn't sell you anything, guarantee anything, or force you to do anything. Tens of thousands love these headphones. Don't like them? Return them.

 

[equalspeace]

Weirdest bass of all times lol

It's loose and yet still somehow very informative. I don't understand it. I do luv it though

 

[kestrel4]

I'm taking my time and experience to explain what I think you may be hearing and what can be done. I didn't sell you anything, guarantee anything, or force you to do anything. Tens of thousands love these headphones. Don't like them? Return them.

My dismay is with the audio quality from the phones, not with your advice!
I am really appreciative of that.

 

[Sefelt103]

It's still an open topic IMO.

Absolutely, there are some old gems in and on Headfi.

After that avoid playing music with lots of bass on them, and get a nice planar that plays bass better.

I've never heard a planar magnet or electrostatic but with headphones there is always some compromise. In the case of planar magnetics it's the upper mids and upwards that don't conform to natures human hearing. It depends whether one is a bass lover, a music lover or audio component lover. If you love bass then it's closed back dynamic and hope the designer minimised the reflections or planar magnetic and hope this will last. Of course it's a bit more complex than that and each one must go their own way.

 

[bagwell359]

I've never heard a planar magnet or electrostatic but with headphones there is always some compromise. In the case of planar magnetics it's the upper mids and upwards that don't conform to natures human hearing. It depends whether one is a bass lover, a music lover or audio component lover. If you love bass then it's closed back dynamic and hope the designer minimised the reflections or planar magnetic and hope this will last. Of course it's a bit more complex than that and each one must go their own way.

Interesting. Human hearing is not uniform. If you have not heard planars, estats, and presumably ribbons and AMT's - then your take is academic it would seem.

Closed backs of any technology - in particular with hyped bass such as the Fostex TH-900 Mk2 have bass, much too much bass - far more excess bass then the average planar lacks around 2k*. I have yet to hear any closed back, even ones purported to deal with all the issues that they have: early reflections, absorption/reflection that varies markedly with frequency, and small perceived image size sound anywhere near as good as the best 25 open backs I know well.

HD-600/650 certainly tend to conform (from 75 Hz-15KHz) with the Harman curve (which itself is biased in several ways) than most other headphones. I know very few headphones - even those two that do not improve with judicious use of PEQ (not fixed freq EQ).

I'm after musical accuracy - not .00001 measurements - honed/colored by early exposure to the BSO and Quad ESL's as a child/and the "New England Sound" - Deep but taut bass, lean midbass, full mids, and extended but not harsh highs.

* My theory based in part on observation is that the typical rear overhang of the body holding drivers is affected by the depth of the overhang. Adjust the depth and watch the dip move substantially. If I had a printer that supported it - I'd make cups that had a variation on the overhang on the back from something like .25" - 1" with divots (of different width/depth) cut out of the taller portions in a ratio of 1, 1.67, 2.5 increments from each other - probably 5 divots total. That would smooth the output without a doubt. Also have the driver not center mounted W.R.T. the back of the cup - like the center of the Senn HD-490 is not centered. Driver closest to the lowest part of the rear overhang. Certainly also using resonant resistant materials as well.

 

[drummerman1]

Interesting. Human hearing is not uniform. If you have not heard planars, estats, and presumably ribbons and AMT's - then your take is academic it would seem.

Closed backs of any technology - in particular with hyped bass such as the Fostex TH-900 Mk2 have bass, much too much bass - far more excess bass then the average planar lacks around 2k*. I have yet to hear any closed back, even ones purported to deal with all the issues that they have: early reflections, absorption/reflection that varies markedly with frequency, and small perceived image size sound anywhere near as good as the best 25 open backs I know well.

HD-600/650 certainly tend to conform (from 75 Hz-15KHz) with the Harman curve (which itself is biased in several ways) than most other headphones. I know very few headphones - even those two that do not improve with judicious use of PEQ (not fixed freq EQ).

I'm after musical accuracy - not .00001 measurements - honed/colored by early exposure to the BSO and Quad ESL's as a child/and the "New England Sound" - Deep but taut bass, lean midbass, full mids, and extended but not harsh highs.

* My theory based in part on observation is that the typical rear overhang of the body holding drivers is affected by the depth of the overhang. Adjust the depth and watch the dip move substantially. If I had a printer that supported it - I'd make cups that had a variation on the overhang on the back from something like .25" - 1" with divots (of different width/depth) cut out of the taller portions in a ratio of 1, 1.67, 2.5 increments from each other - probably 5 divots total. That would smooth the output without a doubt. Also have the driver not center mounted W.R.T. the back of the cup - like the center of the Senn HD-490 is not centered. Driver closest to the lowest part of the rear overhang. Certainly also using resonant resistant materials as well.

Ah, the old accuracy, thing.

Me sometimes think the best we can hope for are renditions that we think sound close to the real thing.

Hell, I have attended live music in not exactly audiophile surroundings were I hoped it wouldn't sound as bad as home.

 

[kestrel4]

I consider myself very lucky to have bought a pair of HD650s without a lot of searching and comparison. I knew I wanted music, especially classical, to sound absorbing and wonderful - and that is what they do. (I have to thank the many reviewers who helped me decide). From all the talk about more expensive headphones, I don't see many that just give a great music experience; it seems to be more about specific features like detail, soundstage, bass, clarity or whatever. Frankly, I suspect that, when headphones are designed to be exceptional in a some features, these very features can become a distraction from musical enjoyment. But I'm a newby so what do I know?

 

[bagwell359]

Ah, the old accuracy, thing.

Yeah that old warhorse.

Me sometimes think the best we can hope for are renditions that we think sound close to the real thing.

Yep. I think for me its the emotional response that dictates. One thing is people tend to remember peak experiences - including superb music in great halls or playback on mega 10's of thousands worth of great equipment. So if "The Pines of Rome" played back on my HE-6 SE recalls how great it sounded at the BSO or on the various high end systems I've heard it on - than that's real good.

Hell, I have attended live music in not exactly audiophile surroundings were I hoped it wouldn't sound as bad as home.

Stadium rock live is almost always not a good thing if accuracy is a goal. OTOH the visuals, or the memory of waiting for the Stones to play in the Boston Garden after being arrested in Providence, or seeing Duane Allman - is very worthwhile, and can also be emotional - but not for the sonic purity.