[Makenshi]

This is mostly a rant regarding how Creative Lab's "Tech Support" assisted me in breaking my Zen Vision W and the proceeded to ignore my e-mail. Skip down to the bottom if you want to be spared 10 page of idiocy. I would say that I'm not mad, but I am. This is the SECOND time something similar has happened. Below is our e-mail correspondence:

Quote:

Original Message Follows: ------------------------ ================================== Subject: CLI - Technical Support Request - (ZEN Vision W) Name: Steve White E-mail Address: xxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxxxx@gmail.com Self Description: Advanced PC User Region: Americas Country: United States of America Support Inquiry: My Creative hardware stopped functioning correctly Product: ZEN Vision W CCPP Certificate Number: Serial Number: M2PF2010648R05104J Purchase Date: Jun/08/2008 Operating System: Windows 7 64-bit Firmware Version: 1.10 Creative Model Number: Connected To: Detailed Problem Description: hi, About a week ago, my Zen Vision W suddenly stopped working. At first I thought that it had died, but I realized it still worked when plugged in. However, as soon as I unplug the charger, the battery status turns red, and the system turns off after 5 seconds. If I try to hold the power button to "ON" position while unplugged, the blue power button just blinks. I tried to flash the firmware but it just says battery too low. First question is, is my system under warranty? If not, is this a problem with the battery that I can just buy a new one and replace or is this a motherboard circuitry problem? Thanks in advance, -Steve

Quote:

Dear Steve, Thank you for reaching us at Creative Technical Support; we appreciate the opportunity to assist you. From your email, I understand that your ZEN Vision W cannot be powered on. I apologized for any inconvenience caused. Your ZEN Vision W is still under warranty. Kindly proceed with the following troubleshooting steps: 1. Allow the unit to charge longer for at least 4 to 6 hours to ensure that it has enough time to be fully charged. Plug it in directly to the rear USB port. Make sure that you’re not using USB hub extension to connect the player so that the power can be maximize. It’s recommended to temporarily remove other USB devices connected currently excluding the keyboard and mouse. If the player comes with a power adapter, it is best to recharge it through the power adapter. 2. Power conservation mode like Standby, Sleep, or Hibernate in your computer should be disabled during the charging. If you are using a laptop, make sure that the laptop is connected to the power adapter and not running just merely with its battery. Kindly refer to the link below for more detailed procedures on how to charge your player: Charging a Creative MP3 Player: Creative Worldwide Support 3. Press the reset button of the player while it is recharging. Observe if the charging indicator appears on the player screen. Try pressing any menu buttons on the player also to see if there is any response from the player. This helps to activate the device especially if it has not been charged or switched on for a long period of time. 4. If the player is able to be charged to at least half of the full bar, try to perform a firmware update. Kindly refer to the step-by-step guide under the sub section “ZEN Players” in our Knowledgebase article: Creative Worldwide Support 5. You may have to wait for at least an hour for the player to charge. If the player does not indicate any charging activity, or is not powering on after at least 6 hours of charging, try connecting the player on another computer with Windows XP (with Service Pack 2 or higher) or Windows Vista and observe if it will charge and power on. If you still require assistance, please reply to this email with any previous correspondence to ensure the quickest and most accurate service. Best Regards, Firdaus Technical Support Creative Labs Americas

yes, it's reallllly cleared you read... the first sentence of my problem description? Let's give it another go by making the problem description shorter.

Quote:

hi, Sorry. I think I was not too clear on my last e-mail. The unit is able to power on when it's connected to a charger or the PC, but as soon as I remove the charger the battery level changes to red, and the system turns off after 5 seconds. When I try to do a firmware update, it says that my battery level is too low to do an update. Does this sound like a firmware/software issue that I can fix on my end, or would I have to send the system in? Please read my original message for further information or ask me for any clarification. If this turns into a problem that requires factory service, would I need the original receipt? I recently moved, so I will need to drive 2 hours to my parent's place if receipt is required. Hope to hear from you soon, -Steve

Quote:

Dear Steve, Thank you for getting back to us; sorry that the suggestions previously didn’t resolve your issue. I understand that your ZEN Vision W cannot take charge. Here is another set of troubleshooting steps below; I hope this will be helpful: 1. Connect the player to the computer’s USB Port and press the reset button on the player while connected to the computer. If the player comes with a power adapter, connect it to the power adapter and then attempt to reset Observe if the charging indicator appears on the player screen. Try pressing any menu buttons on the player to see if there is any response from the player. This helps to activate the device especially if it has not been charged for a long period of time. 2. To charge the player, kindly follow the procedures available from the article in our Knowledgebase: Charging a Creative MP3 Player: Creative Worldwide Support 3. If the issue persists, attempt a firmware update by following the step-by-step guide under the sub section “ZEN Players” in our Knowledgebase article: Creative Worldwide Support If you have any other questions or clarifications in this regard, please do feel free to send me e-mail. Best Regards, Xiao Li Technical Support Creative Labs Americas

......
.....
Deja Vu? Is it just me or did I just see the same message copied and pasted again? Well, since I made my message so short I can't imagine that they didn't read the darn thing. Time to flash my firmware through recovery mode. Biggest mistake of my life.

Quote:

Well, thanks to your suggestions, I cannot use my Zen Vision W AT ALL now. I have repeatedly stated that my system gets a "battery level too low" message while doing a firmware upgrade, yet you guys INSIST that I HAVE to erase my firmware to "fix" the problem. Well, the firmware is erased. The problem is, I can't load it back via the PC because I am still getting the "battery level too low" message. Whereas before I had a working system while charging, not only is my system still not charging, I am getting a "firmware problem" error even while the system is charging. Fortunately, I had enough sense to back up my music library before I tried your "solutions." Please send me instructions that will actually fix instead of break my Zen Vision W or send me a replacement. -Steve

Quote:

Dear Steve, Thank you for replying back to Creative Technical Support; we appreciate the opportunity to assist you. I am very sorry for the same problem bothering you. Based on the description of the issue that you have provided, it appears that your product needs to be scheduled for a repair or replacement. Please note that your product will be tested upon receipt and if no malfunction is found in the product, it will be returned to you. Please follow this link to have an RMA issued for your product: Warranty & Returns All applicable fees will be assessed at the time that your RMA is processed in an effort to expedite the repair or replacement of your product. If you still require assistance, please reply to this email with any previous correspondence to ensure the quickest and most accurate service. Best Regards, Huang Qing Technical Support Creative Labs Americas

Wow.... I will just let my reply speak for itself:

Quote:

I already mentioned that my original sales receipt was over 2 hours away, but it seems like no one found that to be a problem for me before instructing me to destroy my semi-functional mp3 player. All I simply wanted to know is if a new battery would solve my problem before I drive 4 hours to and from Chattanooga for my receipt. Is anyone able to help? Preferably someone who understands English and reads my paragraphs before copy and pasting an automatic response. A phone number to an English-speaking representative would be great. I knew from prior purchase that you guys' technical support was almost nonexistent, but I did not believe that you guys would further damage my mp3 player. Seeing is believing. This is probably the last time I'll buy one of your products.

I haven't heard back from them since.

The irony of it all is that my old Creative Nomad Jukebox Zen died EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. It wasn't exactly the same battery problem, but they way they went about destroying my somewhat-functional MP3 player is almost identical. And you'd think I'd have learned by now.

Now, for those of you that actually read through my problem description, the million dollar question is, is the battery dead or is it the main motherboard circuitry itself. I spend 4 hours driving and gas, $25 diagnostic fees and shipping, or I can risk ordering a battery which might or might not fix the problem. Or I can just spend $50 more and buy a used iPod or something. Suggestions?

I don't know; am I the only one that finds their tech support beyond ****ty or am I just being a ******** by having too high of an expectation? Is it too much to ask for tech support to fix your unit, instead of breaking it?

 

[krmathis]

Great customer support make happy customers!
End of story...

 

[Nocturnal310]

haha..


many years ago...after my sony earphones broke..i bought Creative HQ1400 headphones...this is my customer service experience: Creative HQ1400 - Design Flaw + Bad Customer Service - Notebook Forums and Laptop Discussion


thanks to creative ****ty headphones though....i discovered Sennheiser..and then head-fi.

i hope their company goes broke and they die in hell for making crappy products.

lot of companies in singapore actually do this..they make 3rd grade products in china..then brand it..hype its price and sell it to customers who dont do market research.

 

[Zarathustra19]

Well, I'll try to attempt an answer that is more coherent than creative "America's" customer service was able to.

From the problems you described, it certainly sounds like a battery issue. If its plugged into your computer and was working while connected, but had problems after you disconnected it, it sounds like a power problem.

I can't be sure, and so I'm hypothesizing from the actual info you posted. It may or may not be worth sending it back to Creative for a diagnostic, but from what I've read of their customer service, you may be better served just to try replacing the battery and seeing if you can update the firmware after that.

But then again, "From your email, I understand that your ZEN Vision W cannot be powered on. I apologized for any inconvenience caused. I also understand that your ZEN Vision W cannot be charged. Please charge it for six hours or so. Even though the battery isn't working correctly, this should correctly correct the problem."

Good luck!

 

[tattoou2]

I must be a masochist because, over the past four years, I've owned three Creative DAP's and all crapped out after six months to a year. Creative's customer service seemingly is in name only. I have concluded their products are disposable, poorly made, and given to be thrown against walls.

 

[marvin]

That service is reasonably decent* and I'd say that your reply was out of line. They notified you of warranty information in the first email, gave a thorough troubleshooting routine, and told you to RMA it after it was clear that the troubleshooting on your end wouldn't work. Really, that's about as good as it gets.

* Assuming that they replied in a timely manner. Without timestamps, it's hard to know if they were responsive or not.

 

[Khanate]

I had a zen micro. Most zen micro used to die in the same way. Creative didn't do anything about it. I am not buying creative products ever again.

 

[walkingman]

I have to agree with marvin. The reply here is pretty much standard. They even offered you to RMA the unit, which seems to be the standard industry response. Furthermore, the CS didn't even say anything about sales receipt...

I have friends working in CS departments other industries. You wouldn't have to believe the amount of **** they have to put up each day from both customers as well as internally, nor are they recognise for their work whenever someone from a none-CS department cocks up badly and they have to fix it. Most of them are just doing their job.

 

[skudmunky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanate /img/forum/go_quote.gif I had a zen micro. Most zen micro used to die in the same way. Creative didn't do anything about it. I am not buying creative products ever again.

Creative did in fact fix the problem with the Zen Micros, and I'm still using my first generation Zen Micro right now - it has in fact outlived my Zen Vision W which recently broke in the same way the OP is describing - the battery no longer charges. As soon as I buy a new battery I'm sure it will be back in business. Thing is built like a tank, I've dropped it off my bed to my thin-carpet-covered concrete dorm room floor multiple times and it still works.


Now the only problem is finding a replacement battery, creative doesn't seem to sell them. Funny though, I can still find third party Zen Micro batteries cheap and easy.

 

[Makenshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif That service is reasonably decent* and I'd say that your reply was out of line. They notified you of warranty information in the first email, gave a thorough troubleshooting routine, and told you to RMA it after it was clear that the troubleshooting on your end wouldn't work. Really, that's about as good as it gets. * Assuming that they replied in a timely manner. Without timestamps, it's hard to know if they were responsive or not.

It was a timely manner; the correspondence took place within two days in all.
However, I should note, that they NEVER answered my original question regarding the possible source of problem.

The reason I got really mad is because the audio player WAS working when plugged in. Despite me repeatedly me telling them that I am having trouble flashing the firmware, they repeatedly told me to do so, even instructing me to force-erase the firmware on the player. If you look at my correspondence, you will notice a drastic change of tone between the first two and last two replies, and it should be quite obvious that was the period of time which I took their advice and broke the MP3 player. Maybe I'm rationalizing this too much; I should be happy that they are even offering to repair my MP3 player for about $50. I don't think anyone can blame me for not putting too much trust on that warranty though given what I just went through (and my previous experience with Jukebox Zen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkingman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furthermore, the CS didn't even say anything about sales receipt... I have friends working in CS departments other industries. You wouldn't have to believe the amount of **** they have to put up each day from both customers as well as internally, nor are they recognise for their work whenever someone from a none-CS department cocks up badly and they have to fix it. Most of them are just doing their job.

It doesn't say in their replies, but when you go to fill out the web RMA form it states that original receipt is required.

I have worked as CSR before as well and don't doubt your friend. They do have to put up with some **** occasionally, but a lot of times they are the cause of the mishap. I have seen too many coworkers just goof off and doing all sorts of ridiculous things while on the line with a customer. That's besides the point, really, because this is an e-mail correspondence in which the customer unwillingly took the advice given by two separate CSR which rendered the customer's product useless. I know there are scripts and KBTs you have to refer and adhere to, but come on, how long does it take to read a paragraph? It's not like they're getting paid by the case and trying to solve each case as soon as possible will net you more income.


Anyways, maybe I am an *******, but I feel cheated nonetheless. The question which I originally set out to ask (which all the Creative replies failed to answer): Has anyone run into the situation where the battery just stopped working and refuses to charge up? Is that fixable by replacing the battery or is a RMA required?

 

[Makenshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skudmunky /img/forum/go_quote.gif Creative did in fact fix the problem with the Zen Micros, and I'm still using my first generation Zen Micro right now - it has in fact outlived my Zen Vision W which recently broke in the same way the OP is describing - the battery no longer charges. As soon as I buy a new battery I'm sure it will be back in business. Thing is built like a tank, I've dropped it off my bed to my thin-carpet-covered concrete dorm room floor multiple times and it still works. Now the only problem is finding a replacement battery, creative doesn't seem to sell them. Funny though, I can still find third party Zen Micro batteries cheap and easy.

Yea, I have to admit that the thing, while bulky, is very sturdy with its magnesium frame. I tried to look for a new battery too but Creative doesn't seem to be carrying the part anymore. Doesn't help it has the exact same part number as the old Zen Vision battery which is unfortunately incompatible (guess which idiot ordered one <--). Look forward to hearing about your new battery and I really hope that solves the problem.

 

[macbug]

I don't see what else they could have done differently. Their first reply was to make sure that you 1. Eliminate the USB cable or your connection as the problem. 2. There isn't a problem with your computer's settings 3. You're not an idiot 4. If the player is able to be charged to at least half of the full bar, try perform the firmware update 5. Try another power source or OS

None of the above have anything to do with reading your problem, they are standard procedures and any one of them could be a potential cause especially since you are running a computer with a preview version of Windows that was released within the time frame of your problem occurring.

Then in the second exchange a different CSR tells you to try different things, and guess what,

Creative Worldwide Support

This is what it says.. you have to use the mp3 recovery tool. But wait, when you get to the mp3 recovery tool it tells you your battery needs to be half full, even though it's supposed to fix a problem where your battery is not. (PS it does warn you clearly you have to backup your data) What happens then? Then they tell you about RMA. How come they don't have a clue? Because they don't have a clue. They get these KB, and then they get their own experience on the job on what worked and what didn't. They didn't (directly) answer your question because at the first exchange they have no idea if the battery is the actual problem, and they wanted to make sure you didn't just say you tried to flash, you actually did it right (tm) (I've seen lots of people who insists they did port forwarding and their game still doesn't connect, and then I make them post a screenshot of a config and it clearly shows they are using the wrong IP, just an example). None of this excuses the robotic response or the canned answers, but this is precisely the way they're instructed to work and frankly they probably don't know any better. Again, to be fair, everything they've told you was to answer your question

Quote:

Has anyone run into the symptom where the battery just stopped working and refuses to charge up?

YES. TRY THESE STEPS.

Quote:

Is that fixable by replacing the battery or is a RMA required?

Apparently not in your case, otherwise they would've told you to go and purchase a replacement battery - or maybe it's simply faster for you to RMA it than turn around and complain about paying for something that doesn't fix your problem.

Also your questions that you wanted 'answered' was prefaced with "if not under warranty"...

 

[Makenshi]

In my original message, I clearly indicated that I am charging through a charger, so I'm not sure why diagnosing my connection to the PC is critical. Either they didn't read my message, or I suck at getting my point across, since you missed my problem description as well.

The second reply really is the same as the original, just rephrased; it even linked me to 2 KB articles that are already on the first reply. That's after I voiced my worries about reloading the firmware twice. If you look beyond the first part of the second reply, into the 3. If the issue persists, you will see that I was directed to use the recovery tool once again, which is the advice that broke my at-then-still-functional player, by me placing my trust on the Creative technical support staff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by macbug /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also your questions that you wanted 'answered' was prefaced with "if not under warranty"...

Yea. That's before I found out that it'll cost me more to RMA the system that's still under warranty than to buy a new battery. Besides, if I can just go buy a battery and have the system up and running in a few days I'd even be willing to pay more as opposed to waiting for 4 weeks (from my prior Creative RMA experience with the Zen Jukebox Xtra).

 

[macbug]

Well that depends on what you would term a charger, since most portable devices can be charged through dedicated power chargers or through your computer, when someone says 'charger' it's not necessarily indicative of what type (plus customers don't necessarily always have their terminologies right). In any case when in doubt it's easier to include it as one of the potential troubleshooting steps rather than going through clarifications. All I'm saying is cut them some slack, their boss wrote the KB I linked that explicitly stated in the event of the problem you described one should use the recovery tool and flash your firmware, except in your case it fails and they've got nothing in the script to tell them what to do except to send you the RMA link. I completely agree that what they ended up directing you to is bullocks, but I don't think it's a result of them goofing off at work or intentionally trying to get you to brick your player. The first CSR was clearly aware of the battery power requirement but the second CSR apparently didn't, and the documentation they linked to should've been very explicit about the potential issues which it is not. You can write up angry emails or place angry phone calls to Creative, but as far as 'industry standards' go I don't see how this is particularly worse than support you would get from any of their competitors, which is not saying a lot (and I once had to notify my employer's tech support department that their "press 5 to speak to a representative" was actually missing from the options presented to callers even though that option exists)

 

[walkingman]

My advice, just have your parents Royal Mail the receipt to you and then RMA it. You may be lucky and get a whole new (or completely refurbished Creative DAP - which in my experience is always more reliable than a new factory one) just as your warranty is about to expire. Good luck.