[japa]

Result: Don't need one.

I've read many posts how a headphone amp is essential when listening with more demanding headphones, like Sennheiser HD-650. So I ordered one entry level (=price near $100) headphone amp. I went trough my selection of different kind of music,the same which I used for comparing DT-880 and HD-650. I set the volumes so that heaphone out and the amp out would produce same volume level. Karma was set to maximum volume level, which is louder than I usually listen to. The amp was connected from RCA lineout coming from Karma's dock.

There were only couple of songs where I think I may have heard slight difference. Nothing so convincing that I could identify the amp from Karma in blind testing. One of the differences being Rebecca Pidgeon's voice sounding slightly brighter in "Heart and Soul" with amp than without it. But that's about it, and The difference was _very_ subtle. For brighter sound I could use either my EQ or different set of headphones (eg. DT-880). Perhaps I didn't know what to look for with and without amp? The bass was not more controlled (to my ear) and Karma didn't run out of juice in bass heavy samples. The amp was set at abt. 60% volume, at 75% distortion was introduced and the volume level was not that much louder. (Ie. Karma can drive the headphones loud enough, no justification for amp there either.)

But perhaps it's all in my newbie ears that can't pinpoint the differences. I hope there is a difference with my friend's iPod, so he'll buy this amp.

Song used for testing:
Bliss - Sleep will come (from cafe del mar - dreams 3) lame --Alt preset extreme. (Has nice low sounds and bright sounds.)
Vanessa Mae - Moroccam Roll: Lame CBR 192kbs.
Snap - When you are near me: Lame CBR 192kbs
Queen - Kind of Magic: Lame CBR 192 kbs
Brennan - Speaker Check: CBR 192 kbs (Some heavy duty pounding bass)
Sara K. - If I could sing your blues: Lame --Alt preset extreme
Big Bud - On the Six: Lame --alt preset extreme
Shoeberg - Marmion: Flac (Basic techno, very bass heavy song)
Robbie Williams - Me and my monkey: Ogg Vorbis -q5
Rebecca Pidgeon - Heart and Soul: Ogg vorbis -q7
Aki Sirkesalo - Mykkäkoulu: Ogg vorbis -q5
Altom - All of that: Lame CBR 192 kbs. (Goa trance with impactfull drums)
Heather Small - Dont look for love: Ogg vorbis -q5
Dj Tiesto - Love Comes again: Lame CBR 192kbs


Ps. This is not to bash my amp, it's more to say: Amp is not always needed, at least not with Karma. Don't scare people who are thinking about nice headphones by telling them they also need an amp.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa Result: Don't need one..

Yes you do. Read below....

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa So I ordered one entry level (=price near $100) headphone amp.

Which probably is weaker than the headphone out on the karma which is rated at a hefty 55mw@16 ohms and can drive many headphones that other portables simply cannot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa ...at 75% distortion was introduced and the volume level was not that much louder. (Ie. Karma can drive the headphones loud enough, no justification for amp there either.)

Nonsense. Loudness does not equal quality. You have a lot to learn about mating a high impendence headphone with a good quality amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa But perhaps it's all in my newbie ears that can't pinpoint the differences.

Maybe so, but i think its part ignorance too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa Ps. This is not to bash my amp, it's more to say: Amp is not always needed, at least not with Karma. Don't scare people who are thinking about nice headphones by telling them they also need an amp.

The amp you particularly purchased probably is not capable of driving the HD-650's? Did you ever thing about that? Plus, what kind of amp is it, what's inside of it? If its a cmoy or an altoids, those definitely cannot drive a HD650 at all. Even though i've briefly auditioned a 650, neither amp could drive my HD580's that well at all.

My post isn't meant to bash your opinions, but i think your findings are heavily skewered and i think you really need to audition a amp that will mate well with your HD-650's.

 

[tim_the_gamer]

I find that the difference is fairly significant across the entire spectrum when using the HD580 (very similar to the 650) amped vs. unamped from the Karma. The HD580 amped from the Karma line-out sounds smoother, more lively, and the difference at both extremes (clearer highs, tighter controlled bass) is really quite obvious.

While the Karma may be capable of driving the HD580 loud enough unamped, the quality of the sound is not nearly as good as these headphones are capable of. I would recommend you to try (just to try) another properly amped source, preferably a better one than the Karma, so that you can hear what your hd650s are capable of sounding like (if you haven't done so already). That might help you with distinguishing differences in different set-up. And of course if you haven't done so, perhaps try a different amp with the Karma if possible.

And if you still can't hear a difference, consider yourself blessed in that you can save yourself a lot of money not having to purchase an amp

All the best.

 

[Teerawit]

For real, if the difference isn't huge to him, then stop trying to hurt his wallet.

 

[japa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco Quote: Originally Posted by japa ...at 75% distortion was introduced and the volume level was not that much louder. (Ie. Karma can drive the headphones loud enough, no justification for amp there either.) Loudness does not equal quality.

That remark was put there as one of the reasons/justifications for getting headphone amp is that one can get higher volume levels with headphone amp. With karma, that point is moot, as karma can produce enough power.

I forgot to take into account that sound scale is logarithmic and to hear difference in volume level, power needs to be doubled. At least I that's what I've let my self to be told. So for a lot louder volume from headphone amp, it would take amp producing 16watts or so.. (how much can the senns take?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco The amp you particularly purchased probably is not capable of driving the HD-650's? Did you ever think about that?

It depends on who you ask about it. I haven't seen anyone saying this or other entry level, portable amp is not capable of driving the senns.
Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco Plus, what kind of amp is it, what's inside of it?

OPA2227

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloco My post isn't meant to bash your opinions, but i think your findings are heavily skewered and i think you really need to audition a amp that will mate well with your HD-650's.

Or maybe I'm just equipped with ears of concrete and can't spot the difference. Though, on the other hand, the situation with my friend's iPod (3g) was totally other. Headphone out compared to amp out (ipod - lineout - amp out) was clearly different case. In blind testing, all but one occasion, it was the amp that produced better sound. Fuller, richer, lower bass, etc. And of course the possibility to play music quite loud. I'm quite sure my friend will purchase this amp from me

.

Thank you for you comments, I appreciate them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the gamer I find that the difference is fairly significant across the entire spectrum when using the HD580 (very similar to the 650) amped vs. unamped from the Karma. The HD580 amped from the Karma line-out sounds smoother, more lively, and the difference at both extremes (clearer highs, tighter controlled bass) is really quite obvious.

I believe there may be some difference when burning in headphones, but I don't believe amps have similar effect. Still I decided to do abt. 100 hours burning to the amp and then see if I can spot the difference. But part of the "problem" may be that I can't spot the changes which the amp makes. I'd need some way to learn what bass is controlled and what is not.. Or perhaps, it's better for my wallet that I can't spot the difference

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the gamer I would recommend you to try (just to try) another properly amped source, preferably a better one than the Karma, so that you can hear what your hd650s are capable of sounding like (if you haven't done so already). That might help you with distinguishing differences in different set-up. And of course if you haven't done so, perhaps try a different amp with the Karma if possible.

I'll skip the another source part, as I'm just looking for the ultimate portable sound. HD-650 are actually quite portable, I just need a shorter cable with it. But I have to give another try to some other headphone amp before I declare Karma having great amp.

Thank you for your reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teerawit For real, if the difference isn't huge to him, then stop trying to hurt his wallet.

Hey, I like that piece of advice

SR-71 would definatly hurt my wallet..

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by japa OPA2227

What's the name of the amp (That's the op-amp)? Where did you buy it from if you don't know the name.

 

[ilikemonkeys]

I dont have any senn cans.

I have the Etymotics, which a re hard to drive as well. I have used the Karma and the Xin Micro (not a terribly powerful amp) and I find a considerable difference. Although the Karma will sufficiently power the Ety's, amping out of the Karma is quite enjoyable.....to my ears.

Just my 2c.

B

 

[japa]

Ok, as it has been pointed out that the amp is usefull with iPod and Dt-880, so this thread can not be thought as one frustrated guy bashing the amp/amp maker. Certainly the amp is good for its purpose, just that _with_ _karma_ it does not perform notable better than Karma's internal amp. There for I would't say the portable amp is bad, just that Karma's amp is good.

OK, is that enough of a disclaimer, I hope so. Cause I don't want to ruin Norm's amp's reputation. Yeah, the amp in question is go-vibe ver3.

 

[akwok]

Well..

Improvement using a CMoy : somewhat substantial
Improvement using a GLite : very substantial

In the chain of upgrades :
1.) Headphones
2.) Source <=== !
3.) Amp
4.) Cables

Lucky Post 777!

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok Well.. Improvement using a CMoy : somewhat substantial Improvement using a GLite : very substantial In the chain of upgrades : 1.) Headphones 2.) Source <=== ! 3.) Amp 4.) Cables Lucky Post 777!

But if you already have a Rio Karma, how else can you upgrade your source? What I mean is that most people suggest standalone (SA)CD players, but people have a Karma for a reason, and that's to play their music in mp3s or FLAC without being tied down to a big (SA)CD player. How much can you improve the source by getting another mp3 player (It's also a little unsettling to have just purchased a Rio Karma and a few months down the line being told to get another mp3 player)?

 

[MakoFury]

I had an ESound CD5 source ($700), MPX3 amp ($1100), and VH Audio interconnects ($170) and didn't really notice THAT much of a difference as opposed to using it with my Sony DVD player headphone out. Granted the player was $1200 in 1999 so it was fairly high end. The HD-650s sounded clearer and better, but it was NOT $2000 better.

 

[chrisfromalbany]

I use my 4th Gen Ipod, line-out, SMv3, HD650s. And there is a big difference between the HD650 amped and just the jack. More of a difference when the SA5000s, HD650 need the amp more.

But in either case, at this level I don't listen to either without the SM. I also can tell the difference between using the ZU Mobius and the standard cable. I wouldn't say it is night and day but there is a noticible difference.

 

[akwok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure But if you already have a Rio Karma, how else can you upgrade your source? What I mean is that most people suggest standalone (SA)CD players, but people have a Karma for a reason, and that's to play their music in mp3s or FLAC without being tied down to a big (SA)CD player. How much can you improve the source by getting another mp3 player (It's also a little unsettling to have just purchased a Rio Karma and a few months down the line being told to get another mp3 player)?

Uhh. An external DAC? You can't honestly be telling me that a Karma + HD650 is a portable rig, .

 

[Azure]

Well, portable in the sense that you don't need to be near an outlet (That's my definition of portable; as long as you don't need an outlet, I consider it portable and would use it on the go).

 

[meat01]

A CMoy will drive HD580's, 600's or 650's with ease. Just because it is a small, simple circuit does not mean it can't drive 300 ohm headphones.