[Czilla9000]

I have been studying cables for a while now...and I think it is now time for me to test my knowledge (or lack of

).


Plz varify if the following statements are true:

- A cable is made up of 4 parts: the conductor, insulator, ground, and connector.

- Argentum (Periodic Table: Ag; Common Name: Silver) is the most conductive, and therefore best, element at ambient room temperatures. However, it tarnishes easily and is more conductive to higher frequencies than lower, causing the resulting sound to be brighter (boosted high frequencies). Oxidatation (?) is also a problem.

- Cuprum (Periodic Table: Cu; Common Name: Copper) is the second most conductive element at ambient room temperatures. Despite being less conductive, it is used more frequently than silver because it costs less, does not tarnish or oxadize as rapidly, and has a more linear frequency response - making performance more predictable.

- Aurum (Periodic Table: Au; Common Name: Gold) is the third most conductive element. It is not used because it is WAY too expensive. However, oxidation cannot occur with aurum.

- Conductivity is the opposite of resistance.

- Air is the best insulator. Less teflon, more air = good.

- The job of the insulator is to seperate the conductor from the ground.

- The ground wire is needed to prevent electric shock (?).

- The quality of the ground does not effect sound quality (?).

(the ground is the part I am most befuddled about)


- For best sound quality the connector (RCA plug etc.) should be crimped on and not soldered on.

- Stranded core conductors are better than solid core conductors. They bend easier, do not get abrasions (unlike solid core) and are less effected by skin effect.

- The skin effect is the main problem that occurs with cables. The higher frequencies goto the outer skin of the conductor, limiting bandwidth and rolling off highs.

Non-circular conductors (squares, ovals, etc) sound better than normal circle conductors because skin effect does not effect them.

- Persumably, that is the reason better cables sound brighten sound compared to stock cables.

Thank you!

 

[DanG]

Oxidation is simply the chemical reaction you get when you have an element in air. "Rust" is the result of iron entering this reaction (it's actually the oxygen in water that makes iron rust). I believe, though, that silver oxide still conducts electricity as well as regular old silver.

Conductivity is affected by a number of factors. But conductance is the inverse of resistance.

 

[Czilla9000]

Thanks DanG!


I updated it with more questions.

 

[DanG]

Keep in mind that this skin effect stuff is very controversial. From what I understand from conversations with professors (including those whose focus is on materials science), the skin effect is really only applicable to frequencies in the high MHz range, not in the low kHz range (we can't hear past 20 kHz).

By the way, you can get all of these answers if you search online for some good engineering sites. The navy has one here:
http://www.tpub.com/neets/

It has a lot of information about engineering, but the following part talks about electric conductors:
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/index.htm

Searches on Audio Asylum will sometimes yield good results if you're looking for the more "far-out" theories.

 

[Czilla9000]

Thanks again Dan. I am well aware of the controversy surrounding cables.



Activity in this forum seems slow lately...however...



I am open to other replies as well!!!!

 

[chillysalsa]

I'm not an electrical engineer, but this paper on Skin Effect is a pretty good guide to the science behind it. I've heard he makes some over-simplifications and overlooks a few things to try to convince you it should make no *major* difference on sound, which I don't totally buy.

 

[Czilla9000]

Thanks for the article, from it I can deduce the following facts.


- Litz Wire is the best for audio interconnect.


- The more strands and the larger the diameter the better.

 

[Orpheus]

the "best" theoretically should be solid wire, rather than your "litz".... in solid cables, there would be no strand-strand interaction. however, i doubt it would make any difference at all.

...also, i am not sure that silver conducts higher frequencies any more than lower frequencies, especially in the audible range (20hz-20khz). ...you can check up on that... but i have a feeling it's just a rumor than some guy thought he might have heard a difference.

as for the other "measurements" of cable performance, as DanG points out, these factors only are applicable to ultra-high frequencies, much higher than your hearing. there is a article written by Dunlavy that points this out...

ALSO...... many cables claim to lower skin-effect by changing core shapes.... (assuming skin-effect matters.) one company even claims their "ribbon" conductors have an ultra-low skin effect because of their shape. all i can say is that these people need to go back to kindergarten! ............i'm sure you've learned long time ago that keeping the same area, changing the shape farther from square/circle towards rectangular or ribbon shapes INCREASES perimeter length...... and increases the resulting surface area!--thus MORE skin effect. so many idiots in this world..................

the lesson?--too much ******** written by cable manufacturers. use your brain and don't believe all you read.

.....also, i just want to make sure you understand that i'm not arguing cables do not make a difference... so don't flame me. i'm just pointing out that so many rumors out there just are not scientifically sound, or hell.... not even kindergarten sound in some cases

 

[Czilla9000]

Hmmm....if skin effect does make a difference....wouldn't having a bunch of small stranded conductors, insulated from each other (which is what litz wire is) be best, because each strand is so small, it does not matter if it goes to the skin or not????


To quote the article:


"Litz wires consist of a bundle of very thin, individually insulated conductors. The insulation ensures that the current flows in all of the wires in the bundle as the charge cannot migrate towards the surface of the bundle. The entire cross section of conductor bundle is therefore used by the charge transport. Provided that the individual strands are thin enough, the strands all have individual radii that are small compared to the skin depth at audio frequencies. Hence the overall properties of the Litz bundle tends to be similar to that of a single wire of the same diameter of the bundle but where ‘skin effect’ is apparently absent."




P.S. I think what the ribbon people mean is by making the cable "all skin", it makes it so it does not matter if the frequencies go to the skin, because it is all skin. (sorry, I know that sounded confusing) I think company like Nordost, who make ribbon interconnects, opperate under the 'if you can't beat it join it' maxim (if you can't beat the signal going to the skin, make it all skin)
.

 

[Orpheus]

....okay.... let's say IF IF IF skin effect makes a difference.... that's still ********. think about it... what's skin effect?--people belive in wires the signal is carried closer to the surface of a conductor, rather than in a middle (and so you know... electricity doesn't flow in a single path... it does go through all parts of a conducter, though not always uniformly).... so......... if you take something and chop it up--like little tiny litz conductors--you're INCREASING the surface area! .............. it's like your stomach man.... it's just a big sack.... but it has zillions of tiny vili that actual increases the surface area thousands? (maybe hundreds) fold. and thus.... your stomach absorbs so much more. same idea..... you cut up that wire into little tiny strands, you increase surface area... and thus more skin effect.

understand?

--now here is why they can make a statement like that... if you think about it, if you assume that the electricity stays within each strand, and is carried near the perimeter of the strand, then in effect, the electricity is being distributed more evenly across the aggregate cross-section. however,............ so what!?--you're still increasing the skin effect hundred's fold.

....solid core still should be the best if you believe in all this strand-strand interaction stuff.

and i understand what you say about the ribbon-theory thing.... and perhaps you're right. but the manufacturer i remembered quoting (i think it's mapleshade, but not entirely 100% sure) said SPECIFICALLY their design LOWERS skin effect.... which is absolutely wrong.

 

[Czilla9000]

Alright, I see your point. Plz... Do not think I am argueing with you.

 

[Orpheus]

....? ...i thought that's what you wanted... an intelligent argument.

heh he.... don't worry man.... i try not to make any personal remarks... i'm just arguing cause i believe that much of what these cable makers say is just BS.

argument is good. it allows both sides to bring up some points. (though i still believe i'm right

)

anyway.... personally, i do believe in quality cables. not necessarily any of these "hi-fi" cables... but i wouldn't use any hosa or radio-shack stuff in my own setup. i make all my own cables... and with proven theory behind them.

 

[Czilla9000]

Do you agree with TARA LABS claim that there rectangular IC reduces skin effect?

(you can read about it in Judes review)

 

[Orpheus]

circumference of circle = 2*pi*radius
area of circle = pi*radius^2

perimeter of square = 4 * side
are of square = side^2

okay, for simplicity, let's just say the cable has a area of 1 unit:

radius = 0.56
circumference = 3.54

side = 1
perimeter = 4

as you can see.... 4 > 3.54 or perimeter > circumference....

thus..... the Square Conductor has more skin effect at the same gauge size! (and... it can be shown that the more rectangular the cross section is, the more skin effect it will have...) a round conductor is best--at least skin effect wise.

.....one more ******** exposed.

 

[Czilla9000]

LOL... and I thought I was the ultimate BS exposer when I exposed VD's "Speed of Light" tech.

(which they changed, BTW, I like to think it was because of me

)