[RYCeT]

What made you guys think this is the first time they beat someone with no reason? I bet they have beaten someone with no reason before and got away with it since the person did not die. 16 yo is not kids who can't think for themselves and know the different of right and wrong.

When I was 16 yo, I go to school in different city than my parents, lived by myself and able to judge right and wrong.

I'll say made an example of these kids.
Send a hard message that 'Beating people is not acceptable'

If I can have my way, I'll say eye for an eye, line them up, tied them and beat them senseless so they know how's the victims feeling when they did it to him. There's no one else to blame than themselves.

 

[RYCeT]

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Originally Posted by Marados /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why does everybody think he should be punished? What has transpired is truly a tragedy, and it was certainly a disgusting act for these four individuals to commit. A man is dead for no real reason, and three very young men have blood on their hands, and will have for the rest of their life. Yet at the same time, no amount of punishment will bring this person back. Surely, and effort should be made to educate these people, to the point where they are fit to be reintroduced into society as productive, regular human beings, rather than locking them away in a cell with malicious intent, or sitting him on a chair and turning the poor bastards into human bacon. To all the people who say things such as: What would either of these achieve? Imagine killing three teenagers for something they've done, in pure pernicious, eye-for-an-eye revenge. The thing that they did wrong was to take a life - no one has the right to decide who gets to live and who gets to die, and this is what they were punished for. Killing someone is the worst thing you can do, so if you kill somebody, we'll kill you. Doesn't really work, does it. And as for life in prison. Once more, what will you accomplish? I can understand the idea of locking people up for the rest of their lives in the interest of the public - if it's decided that these people are likely to reoffend, and harm or kill another innocent human being, than I can see the justification in locking someone away for an indefinite amount of time, until it's safe to reinject them into society. But putting someone in a cell and throwing away the key, in the justification of an eye-for-an-eye is myopic and sick. It simply makes you as bad as them.

So what would you suggest? A scolding, a therapy or a pat in the back? Their punishment will send a message to others. Punish them light enough, you'll see more incidents. What they did wrong is beating someone for the fun of it. The Judge should send a message that IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif So what would you suggest? A scolding, a therapy or a pat in the back? Their punishment will send a message to others. Punish them light enough, you'll see more incidents. What they did wrong is beating someone for the fun of it. The Judge should send a message that IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

What I'd do? I'd divert resources to educate these criminals, and bring them to realisation that what they did wasn't right, find out why they did it, try and fix the problem (there's got to be a problem somewhere, which could lie in their upbringing, a chemical imbalance in their head, whatever), and overall attempt to raise them in a moral, ethical way, to the point where they are fit to be reintroduced into society, and continue on with their lives.

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Send a hard message that 'Beating people is not acceptable' If I can have my way, I'll say eye for an eye, line them up, tied them and beat them senseless so they know how's the victims feeling when they did it to him. There's no one else to blame than themselves.

Yeah, real good message you're sending out there.

"Beating people is unacceptable, do you understand me?"
*proceeds to beat criminals*

This is the crux of the problem, where an eye-for-an-eye simply doesn't work.

 

[nysulli]

things would be a whole lot different if the man they killed was your son, or your brother, or even a close friend.

I'm with mcmanus on this one, If your to screwed up not to realize its a bad idea to beat a random person till they drop to the ground, well maybe your to screwed up to be around the rest of us.

but I agree on some points with marados, in some cases you can educate criminals, if this had been simply a mutual fight on both sides, or if one of the kids had thrown a punch in a fit of rage over a mistake the manager made. but not in this case, again, some people might just be to messed up to live with the rest of us, and regardless of how much you educate someone with this kind of mentality, your just one quick relapse away from this story repeating itself.

if you ask me, the life of their future victim is more important to protect then the life of the violent criminal

 

[RYCeT]

Hi Marados, I just saw that you are from New Zealand. Eventhough I have never been there but I've lived in Sydney. What you've said might work in NZ but that won't work here. Why don't you come here and see how things is actually in Philadelphia? It won't take long for you to realize how different things are.

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if you ask me, the life of their future victim is more important to protect then the life of the violent criminal

So true, some lives are not worth saving for.

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by nysulli /img/forum/go_quote.gif If your to screwed up not to realize its a bad idea to beat a random person till they drop to the ground, well maybe your to screwed up to be around the rest of us.l

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

So, you're saying that if you're too screwed up to not realise it's a bad idea to beat a person until they hit the ground, you're too screwed up to be around the rest of us?

Say you find one of these people who hit someone until they hit the ground. He's obviously too messed up to be around us, so you... beat him until he hits the ground. So how are you different? You haven't learned that it's a bad idea to beat up a random person until they fall down... you're too screwed up to be around the others...

You're next.

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif So true, some lives are not worth saving for.

And you are the person to make this decision?

Besides, innocent until proven guilty.

I should make a statement here.

If the criminal is a mass-murderer, some serial stuff with some rape on the side or whatever, I believe locking him up indefinitely (or a relatively long time, either way) is a good thing for the public's interest, rather than retribution. I still think it's a good idea to protect the public when there's a good chance that said criminal will shank some other poor person.

However, that isn't to say that all murderers are like this. Many can change, and have changed, and I think it's fair that you educate them, and rehabilitate them, just to see if they do change. It gives them a chance. And the ones that do change? They've now got a life to live, although most likely one in constant regret for what they have committed in the past. But the death toll isn't one more, and that's what counts.

 

[RYCeT]

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Originally Posted by Marados /img/forum/go_quote.gif See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So, you're saying that if you're too screwed up to not realise it's a bad idea to beat a person until they hit the ground, you're too screwed up to be around the rest of us? Say you find one of these people who hit someone until they hit the ground. He's obviously too messed up to be around us, so you... beat him until he hits the ground. So how are you different? You haven't learned that it's a bad idea to beat up a random person until they fall down... you're too screwed up to be around the others... You're next.

Whoa, why don't you lobby your government to re-educate our criminals over there and keep it there while you've finished re-educating them. They might be a perfect mate for you.

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by RYCeT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whoa, why don't you lobby your government to re-educate our criminals over there and keep it there while you've finished re-educating them. They might be a perfect mate for you.

Ad-hominum me a bit more, please.

 

[manaox2]

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Originally Posted by Paragon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Kids these days are not brought up properly these days. There are a lot of parents that expect the teachers to teach them the basics of life. Tis a shame. A lot of kids do not know right from wrong. I know a few Elementary teachers and some of the stories are unbelievable. It seems to have gotten worse since there is a lot of "both parents working" situations and also divorce and abuse issues. Anyhoo..

As a middle school teacher... X2. It is unbelievable how many sixth graders are more mature then some of their classmate's parents.

I have not heard of an actual case of a person with antisocial disorder (IE. killing with no remorse) who truly "recovered" in reality. They typically stay in prison or go in and out their entire lives. Maybe someone wants to donate their life working to keep them in prison and away from possible victims. They are more likely to be "beaten to the ground" there anyway then when they are put to lethal injection or a chair.

 

[waffles]

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Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I completely disagree. These are the exact types they are looking for.

Have you ever served in the military? If you had you wouldn't be making unfounded and completely wrong statements like that one. If you live in the US it is people like you that make me wonder why I followed in my family traditions and am serving my country away from my family and friends to fight for the rights of people who don't deserve to live in a country they don't respect.

 

[archosman]

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Originally Posted by Marados /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... You're next.

No... I'm not.

I would want a psychologist to evaluate the 16 year old to see if he's a socio/psychopath. If not then I figure there's still time to straighten him out. If not...

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Originally Posted by Marados And you are the person to make this decision?

Yes I will.

You can't reason with a social/psychopath. They literally don't care and never will. I'm going to say that again... they literally don't care and never will. Doesn't bother them the slightest as to what they've done. All they care about is themselves. Honestly those people deserve a bullet to the head. They are not productive members of society and see everyone else as their personal play toy.

Don't get me wrong... killing someone - even if it's justified is a terrible thing. But I believe in the previous post about how you owe it to the next future victim to do something now instead of later...

I was on a Christian forum where one of the ladies there was a prison guard. Even she said there are just some people you can't help.

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by archosman /img/forum/go_quote.gif No... I'm not.

Fantastic! A dog-eat-dog, anarchist world.

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Yes I will.

On what grounds? Who gets to decide that you have the power to have someone executed? As I said before, who watches the watchmen?

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Honestly those people deserve a bullet to the head. They are not productive members of society and see everyone else as their personal play toy.

They're not productive members of society, so they should be shaved off. It truly is chilling, really, when you view a human life as a factor in an economy that you're streamlining.

Also, from the sounds of it, the people you are describing are mentally ill. It is my belief, then, that they most certainly do not deserve a bullet to the head, as it's obvious they're not acting out of malice or spite or malevolence (or any conscious decision of such, of course), but have a natural implication which is simply inevitable and wasn't picked up on early enough.

The outcome still remains tragic, as well as what the criminal has done - but to kill someone for their nature is draconian.

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But I believe in the previous post about how you owe it to the next future victim to do something now instead of later...

Once more, this is flawed reasoning. If we were to make an effort to rehabilitate them, then the ones who are judged unfit for society, the people you are describing as serial murderers, would be kept away in the interest of the public, and the ones who were rehabilitated, you wouldn't need to worry about.

 

[nysulli]

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Originally Posted by Marados /img/forum/go_quote.gif See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So, you're saying that if you're too screwed up to not realise it's a bad idea to beat a person until they hit the ground, you're too screwed up to be around the rest of us? Say you find one of these people who hit someone until they hit the ground. He's obviously too messed up to be around us, so you... beat him until he hits the ground. So how are you different? You haven't learned that it's a bad idea to beat up a random person until they fall down... you're too screwed up to be around the others... You're next.

heres the problem, i haven't beaten anyone till they hit the ground.

you continue to ignore the fact that those 4 kids consciously made a choice to beat a man until he collapsed, they made that choice for a reason, no matter how screwed up they are, 98% of kids don't make that choice because some underlaying morals makes them realize its a bad idea. remember THEY made the choice, not us, we are merely reacting to that choice as to prevent that situation from repeating itself, as I said, reeducation works sometimes, but in my experience, those kids have to realize the magnitude of their actions, and want to change for themselves for their to be any hope of rehabilitation, and even then, theres a good chance they'll relapse and do something similar again

think about this, if your a drug addict, they give people in rehab about a 10% chance of making it clean the rest of their lives. mental issues that lead to killing someone like this isn't much if any different, so your really saying theres a 90% chance these kids are going to do something along these lines again, not odds I like, and certainly no one I want around my family in the future

 

[Marados]

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Originally Posted by nysulli /img/forum/go_quote.gif heres the problem, i haven't beaten anyone till they hit the ground.

Ok, let me try and explain this once more.

Say that you think killing someone justifies the death penalty. Therefore, if you kill someone, we'll kill you. So, a murderer strikes - you kill him.

You kill someone, and we'll kill you - it simply doesn't work. And it's the same with thinking along the lines of "Hey, that guy beats other people up. He's far too unstable to be around us, so let's execute eye for an eye and beat him up too!". When you beat the guy up, you've become the same thing as he is, haven't you.

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you continue to ignore the fact that those 4 kids consciously made a choice to beat a man until he collapsed, they made that choice for a reason, no matter how screwed up they are, 98% of kids don't make that choice because some underlaying morals makes them realize its a bad idea. remember THEY made the choice, not us, we are merely reacting to that choice as to prevent that situation from repeating itself

I don't think you understand what I'm suggesting, so allow me to extrapolate.

You've said that the majority of 16 year olds don't beat people to death. A very fair statement. This is according to an underlying moral code which is in the majority of humans, which I agree with.

So, we can determine that it's obvious that these people don't know this moral code, for some reason or one another. Now, surely it'd be better to try and teach them this moral code through positive reinforcement.

Think of a child, and a bottle of bleach. Say that the child attempts to drink the bleach. I think we can safely say that this child hasn't been educated that this bleach is, quite obviously, toxic. So, should we sit back and watch this child drink the bleach? Then, perhaps even hit them on the head afterwards, to reinforce the message? Or should try stop them, and try to educate them: so that if they ever confront another bottle of bleach, they'll know not to drink it.

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think about this, if your a drug addict, they give people in rehab about a 10% chance of making it clean the rest of their lives. mental issues that lead to killing someone like this isn't much if any different, so your really saying theres a 90% chance these kids are going to do something along these lines again, not odds I like, and certainly no one I want around my family in the future

Any actual factual evidence for those numbers, or simple speculation?

And once again, the people that are more than likely to reoffend would be kept in prison in the interest of the public. I am not suggesting that we just tell a serial murderer "That was bad! People don't like that," and then set him on his way. I am not suggesting we should have dangerous people running around on the streets.