Tariff Wars...

[DenverW]

So many dumbass comments in here. I used to love Head Fi when it wasn’t political.

Education is always more important than critique. Perhaps your knowledge could assist others.

 

[FrancoeurRichard]

Yeah, definitely makes you rethink timing and sourcing might grab what I want sooner just to play it safe.

 

[raymondlin]

Why reply? Report is sufficient.

On that note, I'm a little surprised this thread has been allowed to live in HF in the first place, but so be it. Keep the topic strictly about tariffs and keep politics out of it.

On that note.

Tariffs is a USEFUL tool to TARGET specific industries in order to protect them.
Tariffs at a blanket level at everything just drives everything's prices up and serves no purpose but harm the economy. There are many many many historical precedents of that.

Not to mention in a society where they need foreigner workers to come to pick fruit because none of the locals want to do it. Asking the local population to work in a factory sewing sneakers together is going to be a hard task. It is going to drive prices skywards because labour cost is much higher, unless you abolish the minimum wage and pay local workers peanuts too. Then who is going want to do it? When it cost like $10 for a dozen eggs, who is going to want to work 3 hours for some eggs? It is not possible.

What the US has done is a blanket tariffs, at industries where itself can't sustain, I mean take coffee beans. The US cannot grow its own coffee beans*, how is tariff going to encourage a plant to grow?

This is the same for cocoa, this is the same for many products and produce.

*apart from Hawaii and VERY selected spots, but not enough to sustain domestic consumption.

 

[2leftears]

Why reply? Report is sufficient.

On that note, I'm a little surprised this thread has been allowed to live in HF in the first place, but so be it. Keep the topic strictly about tariffs and keep politics out of it.

Given the background to these tariffs, I'm surprised about that too, seeing that politics is a banned subject here on HF.

Pretty much the only thing left to comment is that whilst these tariffs are in force, audio gear is going to get a lot more expensive across the board . Time to keep one's current gear a bit longer?

The big question is how sticky the price rises for domestic products will turn out to be once these tariffs are reduced or cancelled. Tariffs are driving all prices up (many domestic producers will no doubt use this opportunity to raise theirs too if they aren't already forced by shifting labour costs), but will competition drive them down again in the future? This isn't by definition a price shock that will completely rectify itself once the tariffs come down.

 

[MDKrinkles]

On that note.

Tariffs is a USEFUL tool to TARGET specific industries in order to protect them.
Tariffs at a blanket level at everything just drives everything's prices up and serves no purpose but harm the economy. There are many many many historical precedents of that.

Not to mention in a society where they need foreigner workers to come to pick fruit because none of the locals want to do it. Asking the local population to work in a factory swelling sneakers together is going to be a hard task. It is going to drive prices skywards because labour cost is much higher, unless you abolish the minimum wage and pay local workers peanuts too. Then who is going want to do it? When it cost like $10 for a dozen eggs, who is going to want to work 3 hours for some eggs? It is not possible.

What the US has done is a blanket tariffs, at industries where itself can sustain, I mean take coffee beans. The US cannot grow its own coffee beans*, how is tariff going to encourage a plant grow?

This is the same for cocoa, this is the same for many products and produce.

*apart from Hawaii and VERY selected spots, but not enough to sustain domestic consumption.

Yeah you can’t just invent the natural resources you need.

 

[raymondlin]

The type of manufacturing the US SHOULD be going for isn't those that has cheap labour, you do not want to bring those back to a country that, lack for a better word, have moved on from that. The US is a developed country, you do not want to bring back jobs that you outsource to developing countries. The kind of factory jobs the US want to do are robotic kind, high value products, but those jobs are not labour intensive.

Does anyone know what is a Dark Factory? it is not as sinister as it sounds.

It is a factory that has little no no lights, work in total darkness, because it is completely robotic and automated and robots don't have eyes. Every now and again a few engineers turn up to check and do maintenance and that's when they turn on the lights. Other than that, it works 24/7, in complete darkness. High value products like smart phones, cars, electronics.

That's the kind of manufacturing the US should be building, not sneakers or shorts.

The problem is that tariffs makes building those dark factory now 10%, 20% or 145% more expensive, since you need parts and equipment after all and the US don't have them.

It's like shooting yourself in the left foot and then in the right knee cap.

Take smart phones, the smart way is to encourage companies with tax BREAKS to build those factories in the US, once they are up and running, then you put tariffs in smart phones, now foreign made smart phones now cost 10%, 20% more and you can sell your own smart phone at a price that appears to be cheap to US consumers.

You don't put tariffs on it before you even have an industry (or on things you can make or grow, like coffee beans).

 

[MDKrinkles]

The type of manufacturing the US SHOULD be going for isn't those that has cheap labour, you do not want to bring those back to a country that, lack for a better word, have moved on from that. The US is a developed country, you do not want to bring back jobs that you outsource to developing countries. The kind of factory jobs the US want to do are robotic kind, high value products, but those jobs are not labour intensive.

Does anyone know what is a Dark Factory? it is not as sinister as it sounds.

It is a factory that has little no no lights, work in total darkness, because it is completely robotic and automated and robots don't have eyes. Every now and again a few engineers turn up to check and do maintenance and that's when they turn on the lights. Other than that, it works 24/7, in complete darkness. High value products like smart phones, cars, electronics.

That's the kind of manufacturing the US should be building, not sneakers or shorts.

The problem is that tariffs makes building those dark factory now 10%, 20% or 145% more expensive, since you need parts and equipment after all and the US don't have them.

It's like shooting yourself in the left foot and then in the right knee cap.

Take smart phones, the smart way is to encourage companies with tax BREAKS to build those factories in the US, once they are up and running, then you put tariffs in smart phones, now foreign made smart phones now cost 10%, 20% more and you can sell your own smart phone at a price that appears to be cheap to US consumers.

You don't put tariffs on it before you even have an industry (or on things you can make or grow, like coffee beans).

Yeah idk about going for pure automation in a system in which workers are already undervalued.

The only reason people even like the idea of bringing back manufacturing is because back when we were a leader in manufacturing one manufacturing job could reasonably take care of a family. We no longer exist in an economy where that’s possible. Automation would only further the massive gap between capital owners and the working class.

Also it’s weird to imply that cheap labor should only be for developing nations because foreign ownership of domestic economy is kind of how we’ve kept other countries from developing. Their labor force works for our companies and therefore all value extracted from said labor doesn’t go back to that country. China bypassed this by having a centrally planned economy and government ownership of the means of production for the most part. Other countries don’t have the leverage necessary to make similar demands tho.

The reality is there’s no reason to step away from global trade unless power is being put back into the hands of the workers. Otherwise we’re just moving the exploited class from one country to another.

But yes global tariffs make no sense relative to targeted tariffs for pre existing manufacturing. Like how we put tariffs on imported light trucks in response to the European chicken tax. (This can also be seen as just blatant market manipulation by removing foreign competitors rather than ya know competing with them).

America has set itself up as the consumer economy by having the global reserve currency and also establishing and maintaining global economic hegemony post ww2. The irony is we’re actually the second largest global manufacturer. We just mostly manufacturer weapons that we export all over the world (while claiming no one buys our products) and domestic products like American vehicles and foods that don’t meat foreign regulatory standards. We made up an issue and made it the whole world’s problem. Why would any other country pay more for our worse products?

 

[raymondlin]

Yeah idk about going for pure automation in a system in which workers are already undervalued.

The only reason people even like the idea of bringing back manufacturing is because back when we were a leader in manufacturing one manufacturing job could reasonably take care of a family. We no longer exist in an economy where that’s possible. Automation would only further the massive gap between capital owners and the working class.

Also it’s weird to imply that cheap labor should only be for developing nations because foreign ownership of domestic economy is kind of how we’ve kept other countries from developing. Their labor force works for our companies and therefore all value extracted from said labor doesn’t go back to that country. China bypassed this by having a centrally planned economy and government ownership of the means of production for the most part. Other countries don’t have the leverage necessary to make similar demands tho.

The reality is there’s no reason to step away from global trade unless power is being put back into the hands of the workers. Otherwise we’re just moving the exploited class from one country to another.

But yes global tariffs make no sense relative to targeted tariffs for pre existing manufacturing. Like how we put tariffs on imported light trucks in response to the European chicken tax. (This can also be seen as just blatant market manipulation by removing foreign competitors rather than ya know competing with them).

America has set itself up as the consumer economy by having the global reserve currency and also establishing and maintaining global economic hegemony post ww2. The irony is we’re actually the second largest global manufacturer. We just mostly manufacturer weapons that we export all over the world (while claiming no one buys our products) and domestic products like American vehicles and foods that don’t meat foreign regulatory standards. We made up an issue and made it the whole world’s problem. Why would any other country pay more for our worse products?

The time of 1 manufacturing job can sustain an entire family is over in the US, completely over. Well....not completely, there is 1 solution. You pay them well, you pay them enough that stitching leather in a factory line can pay for a family of 4.

I am sure you know the problem with that, that sports jersey that is like $80 now will be about $300. Or let's take something less luxury, more mundane everything things. Those socks that used to be $10 for a pack of 5, it is now going to be $25 or $50.

That will drive inflation through the roof and because everything is more expensive, and now you are now in a spiral of inflation and wages trying to catch each other.

Choose the industry you want tariff wisely, the only way a factory job can sustain a family is if it is like a Dark Factory, and the guy who works there is a maintenance engineer for the robots, he/she likely has a degree for that role. The idea that low skill jobs in a factory can support a family in the US....I don't think Americans themselves want to do it because the pay will be either horrendous or the product they are making is going to cost 3x as much as one out of Asia, for the same thing. Nobody in the world outside the US is going to buy it.

 

[2leftears]

A 100% tariff on foreign-produced movies has just been announced.

Tariffs on foreign-produced music are getting closer I fear, or maybe Spotify is next in the crosshairs...

 

[raymondlin]

A 100% tariff on foreign-produced movies has just been announced.

Tariffs on foreign-produced music are getting closer I fear, or maybe Spotify is next in the crosshairs...

That will just drives piracy up. Unlike physical goods, digital media gets through far too easily.

The other thing he forget that in the "supply chain" of a movie, there are a lot of people making money, the studio is just 1 part of it. There is the cinema, there is the people working at the cinema, there is the distributor, there is the supplier of popcorn and drinks and snacks, etc.

There are cinemas that shows nothing but foreign films (or indy films), that is a niche. By cutting them off, or rather, doubling the price would actually HARM their audience and thus harming the cinema and the workers there. This will benefit only big chains.

Dumb move.

 

[2leftears]

Dumb move.

Indeed. But not surprised.

Foreign produced music is probably not considered an issue; I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of US music listeners buy US-produced music by US artists.

 

[raymondlin]

Indeed. But not surprised.

Foreign produced music is probably not considered an issue; I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of US music listeners buy US-produced music by US artists.

How are they going to do that anyway?

I seriously trying to think how this will work. Spotify is going to charge US subscribers different tiers now if you want to listen to artists outside the US? Spotify isn't even a US company. Netflix is going to paywall foreign movies?

I doubt it, they are just going to raise prices, across the board.

 

[2leftears]

How are they going to do that anyway?

I seriously trying to think how this will work. Spotify is going to charge US subscribers different tiers now if you want to listen to artists outside the US? Spotify isn't even a US company. Netflix is going to paywall foreign movies?

I doubt it, they are just going to raise prices, across the board.

Well, download & streaming services already have region/country-specific locks on specific content access, so I don't see why this would be impossible.

Never come across the "Sorry, this content is not available in your region" message?

The use of VPNs can also be clamped down on. It's not a pretty picture but where there is a will is a way...

 

[PopZeus]

A 100% tariff on foreign movies is what happens when the dictator in charge has no appreciation for culture (besides his weird nostalgia for 80s disco), or art (besides fascist propaganda).

 

[2leftears]

I guess the legislators will first have figure out what constitutes a 'foreign movie' anyway (in the context of tariffs). So many different people and companies involved these days, usually from all over the world.