[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie It bothers me that what could otherwise be a positive discussion of a budget audio component that gives the world a taste of hi-fi sound has to be rained upon by people who have no experience to speak of. I'm sorry if this post sounds too negative, I don't mean to pass judgment on you.

you dont mean to but you are passing judgement on me on a personal level. not just equipment.

If I were to buy a t amp that would be a downgrade for me. Clipping is a problem with low powered amps. Doesnt take more money to spring for an amp to supplies more wattage either. with the cost of the amp itself and the power supply, one could go either way.

Im glad he found a solution. To discern whether or not an amp is clipping your speakrs doesnt take rocket science. Maybe someone else shouldve gave him some trouble shooting advice, other then me? but when you look at it, he asked what was wrong with his amp and NO ONE answered him. people kept praising the amp.

Rather then me "raining" on the thread, why didnt anyone with a tamp help him? rather then waiting for him to fix it himself, stating he was fine, and THEN let others bash me.

its great that he gets to use the amp now with no problems, Yorkie, if he were to get something with more headroom, it does NOT necessarily mean its poor advice. but also prove to be an investment for future use.

In no way am I ever purposely trying to give poor advice to anyone.
ill be on my way to the sunshine in this thread will return.

the rain gods are now leaving.

PS: If i drop $30-50 to buy a t amp, clip my speakers and come back, will my opinion count then

 

[ReasonablyLucid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWFokker Did you get the RS-3A or the RS-4A and how much did it cost? I'm about to buy one myself. The best I've found so far is $30 for the RS-3A.

Keep searching ebay. I got an RS-7A for $25 shipped

 

[yorkie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 you dont mean to but you are passing judgement on me on a personal level. not just equipment. If I were to buy a t amp that would be a downgrade for me. Clipping is a problem with low powered amps. Doesnt take more money to spring for an amp to supplies more wattage either. with the cost of the amp itself and the power supply, one could go either way. Im glad he found a solution. To discern whether or not an amp is clipping your speakrs doesnt take rocket science. Maybe someone else shouldve gave him some trouble shooting advice, other then me? but when you look at it, he asked what was wrong with his amp and NO ONE answered him. people kept praising the amp. Rather then me "raining" on the thread, why didnt anyone with a tamp help him? rather then waiting for him to fix it himself, stating he was fine, and THEN let others bash me. its great that he gets to use the amp now with no problems, Yorkie, if he were to get something with more headroom, it does NOT necessarily mean its poor advice. but also prove to be an investment for future use. In no way am I ever purposely trying to give poor advice to anyone. ill be on my way to the sunshine in this thread will return. the rain gods are now leaving. PS: If i drop $30-50 to buy a t amp, clip my speakers and come back, will my opinion count then

You seem to be avoiding the point that you have no experience with the T-Amp. The advice you gave him was just plain wrong. Your intentions are admirable, but the reason noone had answered his question was probably that they didn't know the answer. Perhaps you should have followed their example, and waited for someone who knew the answer to respond.

And for the record, the statement "Clipping is a problem with low powered amps." is misleading. Clipping is a result of mismatching your equipment. It's caused as much by using speakers with low efficiencies as it is with using low powered amps. The T-Amp is perfectly capable of giving you permanent hearing damage; you just need to make sure you're using the right speakers to compliment it.

It's really too bad that the T-Amp isn't the product for you, but maybe someday you'll get a chance to listen to it and realise how quick you've been to pass judgment.

 

[pne]

RnB180, please give the amp a shot, it's really a nice little gem, I don't understand why you nail it because it's a low power amp. It's design was never to push inefficient speakers to thunderous levels, it was designed to work with high efficiency speakers. Those usable 5 watts are very defined and definately hi-fidelity. It's like you're telling someone with a luxury sedan to buy a sports car . Both are for driving, but clearly different purposes.

I'm running 92db efficient speakers in a small room, the t-amp is perfect for a lot of music I listen to. Do I use it all the time? No. With bass heavy or dance music, metal, hard rock, I use my integrated 80w. Same when people are over for a party. When I'm listening to classic rock, jazz, orchestral, blues, I use the t-amp for it's clarity. You want to knock the t-amp? I'm an owner and I'll admit it's not perfect. The bass rolloff is quite noticeable, and a problem I am trying to fix along with a lot of other DIYers. The highs are so clear at times they can be too much/shrill and listening fatigue sets in. But there is no way I can get the same quality of mids and high's from my 80wpc amp. If a t-amp will clip with your speakers then it's not for you, but thats no reason to turn away other people. I don't think you should underestimate it without at least hearing it is all.

btw, correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe it's the amplifier clipping not the speakers.

 

[JeffL]

5 Watts is not going to be enough, even with sensitive speakers, in an average room for bassheavy music.

If you want volume and clarity, you need power behind it, plain and simple.

Large drivers especially like gobs of power, and if want good, tight, low bass, you need an amp that can control those drivers to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

$200 would get you a lowend Crown amplifier. I bought my XLS 202 on eBay for ~$175. Good sensitive speakers though aren't going to be cheap. You'll probably want to increase your budget, especially if you want a decent high power amplifier.

 

[Ferbose]

An 100W integrated amplifier cannot power the speakers at an outdoor rock concert--does this make every 100 W integrated amplifier a piece of crap compared to 2000W pro-audio amps?
If a 2000W amp outputs lousy first 5 Watts, it can't be a piece of audiophile equipment.
If an 100W integrated amplifier sounds good in those 100 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system.
If a 5W T-amp sounds good in those 5 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system.
If someone has heard T-amp and thinks it sounds like crap, the person is entitled to his opinion.
If someone has not heard of T-amp, then he has nothing to offer in terms of discussing its sound quality.
And we already know how much power T-amp can output from the TA2024 datasheet, and no amount of bashing is going to change the fact that 5W is enough power in quite a few application scenarios. The simple fact is that you need at least 95-100 dB peak SPL at your listening seat. Simple math will tell you what the peak SPL is depending on speaker efficiency and listening distance.
The point is, we all know how much power T-amp has, and we just need to know if those 5 watts sound good or not. Only people who have listened toT-amp can offer insight into its sound quality. 5 Watts is still 5 Watts, no matter how hard someone tries to make it look insignificant. By definition, 5 Watts is 5 Joules of work per second, and it won't get any smaller than that just becuase someone says it is so "tiny."

 

[RnB180]

I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers. I dont know what you mean by his amp clipping. Ive always thought clipping was done to the speakers when a frequency is required but not enough juice is put out, thus the driver trying to recreate that response is unable to resulting in a plateau and the coil starts moving really fast and eventually melts.

So in his situation if it were battery powered, the batteries could not provide enough power tus causing clipping? According to Yorker I am wrong?
component matching and actual clipping is two different matters.


audibly what you hear when a speaker clips in distortion and dirty sound as you try to push it.

I was going to buy a sonic t am for fun, but then that would be $20 wasted. I would have nothing to use it with.

though I am not throwing digital amplification out the window at all, I will probably pick up the new panny 55.

Home theater was my first audio hobby, then head fi. prior to head fi I was a home theater nut for a couple of years. I was more into demo refernce level and dvds then headphones. I come from a different perspective, according to t amp owners efficiency is a must. I like to drive my soundtrrack up 100+ decibles, during reference movie viewing my subs along hit the 115-120 dB mark. So I like my headroom.

but obviously people that own a t amp wont be pushing their speakers like that. Thats why I consider a t amp pointless for "me". people keep telling me Im wrong for thinking that. How many times do I have to say the t amp wont give me enough power for my own use?

 

[JeffL]

Quote:

An 100W integrated amplifier cannot power the speakers at an outdoor rock concert--does this make every 100 W integrated amplifier a piece of crap compared to 2000W pro-audio amps?

You'd be surprised at what people use for equipment sometimes, especially when money is tight.

Quote:

If a 2000W amp outputs lousy first 5 Watts, it can't be a piece of audiophile equipment.

Not true at all. If your listening room is huge, and you are using that 2kw amp to power multiple subwoofers, you might constantly run that amp near clipping. It depends on the listening setup, and the usage.

Quote:

If a 5W T-amp sounds good in those 5 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system.

Maybe in volume limited scenarios. But 5 watts of peak power is pushing it, especially with highly dynamic music.

Quote:

If someone has heard T-amp and thinks it sounds like crap, the person is entitled to his opinion. If someone has not heard of T-amp, then he has nothing to offer in terms of discussing its sound quality.

Not necessarily. That person might have insight as to technical characteristics and design of the amp, but may not necessarily have heard one. You can measure THD without listening to the amp, for instance.

Quote:

And we already know how much power T-amp can output from the TA2024 datasheet, and no amount of bashing is going to change the fact that 5W is enough power in quite a few application scenarios.

Nearfield scenarios, maybe. Where the is no need for a subwoofer.

Quote:

The point is, we all know how much power T-amp has, and we just need to know if those 5 watts sound good or not. Only people who have listened toT-amp can offer insight into its sound quality.

Fine, but the original question in this thread wasn't regarding what the T-Amp sounded like, it was concerning whether or not the amp would be powerful enough to drive speakers to a "loud" listening level, depending on the thread starters preferences.

Quote:

5 Watts is still 5 Watts, no matter how hard someone tries to make it look insignificant. By definition, 5 Watts is 5 Joules of work per second, and it won't get any smaller than that just becuase someone says it is so "tiny."

Yes, but you also contradicted yourself here. Those 5 watts may sound entirely different from amp to amp, based on design, distortion levels, and so on.

 

[ucbEE]

Quote:

People keep recommending this amp. Why? I'll play devil's advocate and hope you people correct me where I'm blatantly wrong: 5 watts is nothing! You can't go deaf with only 5 watts (if you truly wanted to provide ear-piercing music). And how can any subwoofer give any decent output with only 5 watts unless this "sub" was a 3" driver or something??? 5 watts a channel is only good if you live in a cardboard box! I'm still trying to either buy or put together a nice system that has the ability to actually sound good at very low volumes & very high volumes (with a budget of $200), yet I see this amp recommended time and time again and no-one explains why they recommend it!. It must be the current internet boner for amps or something. Help me understand WHY!!!

That was the original post. Let's take a look at OP's questions and try to answer them one by one:

Quote:

1. People keep recommending this amp. Why?

Because it sounds good to these people with the right equipment and under the right conditions.

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2. I'll play devil's advocate and hope you people correct me where I'm blatantly wrong: 5 watts is nothing!

5 watts is obviously enough for these said people given the right equipment and the right listening conditions/volume requirements

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3. And how can any subwoofer give any decent output with only 5 watts unless this "sub" was a 3" driver or something???

I don't think I can answer this question, as I don't use a sub, so someone who has ACTUALLY TRIED give a response please.

Quote:

4. yet I see this amp recommended time and time again and no-one explains why they recommend it!.....Help me understand WHY!!!

refer to question 1

 

[Necros]

Use this a rough guide..

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html

Personally I would only use this amp on small PC like speakers in near field listening, and not bookshelfs or bigger for room level. Considering in my room peaks will be near clipping with this amplifier. I have a good 20dB peak maximum headroom with my amps, compared to the T-Amp. Considering if it clips several hundred quid down the spout (£2000 speakers) might as well get a high quality amp, decent current drive, decent wattage and knowing you're safe.

 

[xtype]

Hahaha....
Some of this conversations is a bit laughable.

Got a clean 5 watts?
http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/trio.html
Any bloody room you like!

Have a look at Nelson Pass's First Watt page:
http://firstwatt.com/
And then take a look at his Lowther driven back loaded horns:
http://passdiy.com/

These will certainly hurt your ears with only 5 watts.

"5 watts is nothing!"

Gosh, someone needs to tell all of the people at the High Efficiency Asylum that they are wasting their time and money.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html

"5 Watts is not going to be enough, even with sensitive speakers, in an average room for bassheavy music."

This is completely incorrect.

I have some nice Fostex FE Sigma driven horns powered by about three watts of tubes and it gets sufficiently loud (in my 4 metre by 9 metre room) to run my wife out. Plenty of tight, accurate bass.
And then you bring up subwoofers... no one, including the OP, was contemplating powering a multiple driver subwoofer (as you suggested) with a 5 watt T-Amp anyway. but if you really, really wanted to, there are quite a few front horn subwoofer designs that can sound good with little power.

But wait, I thought this was "Headphone Hi-Fi", Why are we discussing low power amplifiers for speaker use?

Cheers,
-xtype

 

[Daroid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie The advice you gave him was just plain wrong. (...)

Your car stalls. You complain to the car dealer offers you two solutions. Either to let him modify the car or buy another car.

Maybe RnB180 should, as the car dealer, look at what is actually causing the stalling and see what potential modifications and solutions can be done. Exchanging the car for a different car would of course solve the problem altogether. It's not the least wrong, but it is not very professional either. Atleast he knows and explains why the car was stalling.

 

[yorkie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers.

That doesn't make your advice correct.

Please refer to your original statement: "If I were you Id ditch the tamp and get something suitable for your paradigms."

That's simply not "how it is". The T-Amp is perfectly suitable for the Paradigm Atoms, and there are hundreds of people out there successfully using this combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 How many times do I have to say the t amp wont give me enough power for my own use?

Then what are you doing here? You've never heard the T-Amp, so what exactly can you contribute to the discussion beyond pointing out the obvious fact that the T-Amp produces only five good watts? If we wanted to know that we would read the thread title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daroid Your car stalls. You complain to the car dealer offers you two solutions. Either to let him modify the car or buy another car. Maybe RnB180 should, as the car dealer, look at what is actually causing the stalling and see what potential modifications and solutions can be done. Exchanging the car for a different car would of course solve the problem altogether. It's not the least wrong, but it is not very professional either. Atleast he knows and explains why the car was stalling.

The advice was simply bad. He didn't know what the problem was, and told the person that the T-Amp wasn't suitable for his needs and that he should buy a new amplifier.

If your head hurts a car mechanic can tell you that you have a headache, but RnB's advice was the equivalent of telling you to get a lobotomy instead of a bottle of aspirin.

When I wanted to learn about headphones I came here and read through dozens of threads, confident that the information I would learn here was correct. I don't like to see people handing out bad advice simply for the sake of giving advice, there are a lot of people who will read this thread with a purchase in mind. It's just irresponsible.

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers.

Speakers don't clip. Amps do.
Quote:

I dont know what you mean by his amp clipping. Ive always thought clipping was done to the speakers when a frequency is required but not enough juice is put out, thus the driver trying to recreate that response is unable to resulting in a plateau and the coil starts moving really fast and eventually melts.

The maximum voltage an amp can deliver is limited by its power supply. If the voltage needed to reproduce a certain waveform exceeds this limit, you'll get a waveform with the peaks 'clipped off' at that voltage, making sine waves looking more like square waves. This means higher frequency harmonics are introduced, i.e. distortion.
check out http://www.rane.com/pdf/note128.pdf

 

[RnB180]