[TheShaman]

Hello all,
I'm aiming to buy my first serious turntable this month (that plastic thing that came with the SONY midi system I bought when I was in high school doesn't even count as a TT I guess!). My budget is kinda limited to about 150 pounds for a deck with arm and, optionally, cartridge.

After some research I came to the conclusion that the best bang for the buck would be a Systemdek IIX900 (or IIX - not sure what their difference is though) or a Manticore Mantra, both fitted with an RB250 or RB300 (though the 300 is hard to come by at this price range). My second choice would be something like a Thorens TD150 or TD160 but I'm mainly focusing on the first two I mentioned. All of the above are said to outperform a new budget TT like the Goldring GR2 or a used, but newer, Rega Planar 3.

What I wanted to ask is how the systemdek and the mantra compare to each other. Did anyone have the chance to listen to them both? I've read the Mantra was best in it's price range (aka better than a Linn Axis) but I'm not sure if the Systemdek IIX900 was in that same price range as well.

It all boils down to this: If you could buy a Systemdek with an RB250 arm and a Mantra with an RB250, which would you prefer?

Audio performance aside, I guess the main advantage of the Systemdek is the better supply of spare parts (since it was more popular than the Mantra and there are the Audio Notes around).

I'm a total newbie when it comes to turtables so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Kostas

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShaman /img/forum/go_quote.gif After some research I came to the conclusion that the best bang for the buck would be a Systemdek IIX900 (or IIX - not sure what their difference is though) or a Manticore Mantra, both fitted with an RB250 or RB300 (though the 300 is hard to come by at this price range). My second choice would be something like a Thorens TD150 or TD160 but I'm mainly focusing on the first two I mentioned. All of the above are said to outperform a new budget TT like the Goldring GR2 or a used, but newer, Rega Planar 3. What I wanted to ask is how the systemdek and the mantra compare to each other. Did anyone have the chance to listen to them both? I've read the Mantra was best in it's price range (aka better than a Linn Axis) but I'm not sure if the Systemdek IIX900 was in that same price range as well.

I am guessing you are from the UK as Manticore's are a pretty rare species seldom seen outside these isles

You have obviously done your homework though. The Mantra was regarded as one of the best mid price tables of the late '80s but I've never seen or heard one so good luck finding one. I know a bit about them because I have several Logic turntables and Manticore bought the company around '88 so I sourced the occasional new belt from them until they themselves went bust in the mid 1990s.

Many of the ideas Logic came up with ended up on the Mantra and other tables. The Mantra offboard power supply is the exact same as that used in the Logic decks.

The Logic Tempo was the mid price offering and is another table you should look out for, although the Logic DM-101 is a better buy as this was their top of the range Sondek-challenger and is way better than any of the other tables you've mentioned.

The Linn Axis is a very nice deck too which I lived with for a while, much less fussy than the Sondek to use and not far off it in SQ. These are pretty overpriced 2nd hand though and certainly avoid the Linn Basik at all costs.

The main benefit of the Dunlop Systemdeks over these is that they are still supported by Audio Note as you mentioned. I am not sure of the difference between the XII900 and XII but I think the 900 was the last version they made before being bought out and is the closest to the TT1 in spec.

Otherwise what you are getting into buying something pretty obscure which is no longer supported like the Logic / Manticore decks is a quest for compatible spares such as springs for the suspensions, replacement motors, bearing oil and compatible belts. Not to mention all the fiddly little rubber o-rings and miscellaneous metal bits. You will have to spend large amounts of your spare time sourcing these on the net from all over the place and if they don't exist getting them made up by a sympathetic machine shop.

The '80s was a period of great innovation in British turntable design from companies like Alphason, Pink Triangle, Ariston, Logic, Dunlop, STD, Walker, LAD, Manticore and Townshend to name a few who are sadly no longer around. Their output moreover, was constantly being improved and updated so there is often not even a great deal of continuity between the same model deck from one year to the next, making spares even more of a challenge.

If this sounds like fun to you then you will get a potentially brilliant sounding deck for a fraction of the price of anything comparable new as you've no doubt realised, but you will have to work at it.

Also post on http://www.vinylengine.com as they are probably the most clued up place on the web for British esoterica...like minded nutters all

Thorens are a slightly different kettle of fish because, although they are not supporting their old models anymore since they changed hands, the popular models were made for so long and were so well distributed that there is a much wider community of users and enthusiasts around the world. These are supported by many original spares which can still be found in Germany and if not then by aftermarket companies like Soundsupports on ebay, who make arm mounting plates for example. The TD150/160 are lovely but don't really work so well with the Rega tonearms, as their suspenions are too lightweight. You are much better off to check out the TD125/126 as these are much more substantially built and not massively more expensive for the level of quality.


All of these decks mentioned are a big step up from any of the Rega's or their various clones and I'm pretty sure you'll be amazed by the difference between them and a basic Sony Midi system turntable. Good luck.

 

[TheShaman]

Thank you memepool!
I live in the UK, indeed. It's not impossible to find a Mantra but of course Systemdeks are way easier to come by.

I've found a Mantra in near Mint condition with it's box and all but that spare parts thing scares me. I'm only going for it if I know it offers something more than a Systemdek would. They seem to be on par when it comes to sound quality (although I haven't been able to find someone that has hear both yet) so I guess I'll go the safe route and wait for a nice Systemdek to pop up at Ebay (not so hard - plenty of them around!).

Thank you again for sharing your experience!

Regards,
Kostas

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShaman /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've found a Mantra in near Mint condition with it's box and all but that spare parts thing scares me. I'm only going for it if I know it offers something more than a Systemdek would. They seem to be on par when it comes to sound quality (although I haven't been able to find someone that has hear both yet) so I guess I'll go the safe route and wait for a nice Systemdek to pop up at Ebay (not so hard - plenty of them around!).

Sorry I didn't mean to scare you off the Mantra if you've already found one as they are lovely. But I wouldn't buy it unless you can make sure it's working properly by hearing it first or unless you trust the seller / buy from a dealer. I'd be pretty cautious about buying one off ebay for sure...

 

[DDF]

I can't tell you about the Mantra, but I did have a IIX for about 8 years, from the mid 80s to the early 90s.

Its a good table, its biggest weakness being the very light springs. Make sure you like the sound of a glass platter with felt mat, because it doesn't take well to retrofitting a sorbothane mat. The springs sag too much then the suspension gets out of tune. Not enough adjustment range to bring it back. Its also susceptible to footfalls if on a bouncy wood floor, especially with teh heavier mats. Wall mounting makes a huge difference with it. I used a Target wall mount stand for years, solved all foot fall issues.

I don't like glass platters (lively, but contrast isn't so good, "black" is more like "grey"), so I eventually went to a Sota Saphire and still use happily it till this day. The IIX was a good table in other ways: good pitch, low wow and flutter (not noticeable), good definition etc. If you're OK with these caveats, I'd go for it with one of the rega arms.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDF /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't tell you about the Mantra, but I did have a IIX for about 8 years, from the mid 80s to the early 90s. Its a good table, its biggest weakness being the very light springs. Make sure you like the sound of a glass platter with felt mat, because it doesn't take well to retrofitting a sorbothane mat. The springs sag too much then the suspension gets out of tune. Not enough adjustment range to bring it back. Its also susceptible to footfalls if on a bouncy wood floor, especially with teh heavier mats. Wall mounting makes a huge difference with it. I used a Target wall mount stand for years, solved all foot fall issues. I don't like glass platters (lively, but contrast isn't so good, "black" is more like "grey"), so I eventually went to a Sota Saphire and still use happily it till this day. The IIX was a good table in other ways: good pitch, low wow and flutter (not noticeable), good definition etc. If you're OK with these caveats, I'd go for it with one of the rega arms.

Interesting about the glass platters. I noticed that they didn't sound so great with a silicon mat as with a felt. Seems to suck all the life out of the music. I think Pink Triangle were the first to use an acrylic platter.

The Logic Tempo was upgraded from a glass to a phenolic (composite) platter in 1987 but Manticore stuck with a glass platter as did Rega and Dunlop.

These days many aftermarket companies supply replacement acrylic platters for decks like the Rega and Audio Note have an Acrylic platter on their TT1 which can be retrofitted to the Systemdek.

It really comes down to taste as many people use glass platter mats.

Springs are a definite issue with all suspended subchassis obviously. They are the most likely to sag with age and changing them for compatible industrial ones (which are fairly easy to come by if they aren't available from the original manufacturer) of equivalent size always changes the sound slightly as springs have a Q (resonant frequency at which they vibrate).

Sometimes changing for tighter ones is for the better and improves the sound but not always.

 

[DDF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Logic Tempo was upgraded from a glass to a phenolic (composite) platter in 1987 but Manticore stuck with a glass platter as did Rega and Dunlop. These days many aftermarket companies supply replacement acrylic platters for decks like the Rega and Audio Note have an Acrylic platter on their TT1 which can be retrofitted to the Systemdek. It really comes down to taste as many people use glass platter mats.

After living with a Rega 2, the Systemdek, the Sota, and having lots of ear time with a VPI MKIV, I find a system can be tuned for ultimately higher performance around acrylic than glass (better dynamic contrast and ultimate detail); and that it can be tuned for higher performance around glass+sorbothane than glass+felt. I've heard glass+ felt sound great, but the rest of the system needs to be tuned around it (tipped down top end, darkish electronics), and you still never get a really great contrast. My experience FWIW. The glass is livelier and lots of people prefer that, for some really good reasons (it can sound funner).

This thread has me pulling out old Everests and giving them a spin again.

 

[TheShaman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDF /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread has me pulling out old Everests and giving them a spin again.

Glad to be of service!

 

[Peddler]

God this brings back memories. Admittedly my turntable setup was not as esoteric as some of yours but I liked it.

Logik DM-101 Turntable
Linn Basik LvX Tonearm
Nagioka MP-11 Boron cart

I spent hours tweaking the system - getting the sound just right. I loved the sound of vinyl and miss it to this day - ah well, the joys of having kids.

Now my entire music collection is on my IPOD and that's all I listen to now. OK - I also have the excellent Etymotic ER4P's and Shure E500's to help things along.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peddler /img/forum/go_quote.gif God this brings back memories. Admittedly my turntable setup was not as esoteric as some of yours but I liked it. Logik DM-101 Turntable Linn Basik LvX Tonearm Nagioka MP-11 Boron cart

Just noticed a DM-101 sold on ebay. Admittedly it had an Ittok on it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...9341&rd=1&rd=1