[tfarney]

This was inspired by the Slee Solo vs GS1 thread, but I thought it might do better on its own.

I'm somewhat of a neophyte here, but the more I read, particularly about folks' attempts at creating system "synergy," the more I'm coming to the conclusion that what they're actually doing is trying to balance warmth and detail - Got bright phones (AKG, Beyer)? Go for warm, lush DAC and/or amp. Got warm phones (Senns)? Go for more neutral source and amp components.

I know there's probably some simplification there, but I think in broad terms, it's a pretty fair analysis. Obviously you can tune to taste, neutral/neutral/neutral if you're really looking for a highly detailed, almost analytical sound; all lush all the time if you're an analog lover trying to squeeze maximum warmth from digital sources (or you just love a warm, lush tone). It's all pretty daunting, given that very few cities, if any, have retail outlets you can walk into and compare and contrast and mix and match a broad variety of dacs/amps/cans for hours, looking for the match that suits you best.

I find myself glad that I'm currently broke and unable to do anything but read, research and wait. But if I had to pull the trigger right now, I believe I'd lean toward neutral with the dac and the amp, and tweak tone with cans. There's no doubt in my mind that transducers make the biggest difference in tone and presentation, and you're going to hear those differences best if they're being fed a pretty neutral signal. In the budget range I hope to be when my ship comes in, all of this points to a neutral DAC, probably made for pro audio (Benchmark, Apogee...?), and a pretty neutral SS amp (HeadAmp comes to mind). I'll plug my Senn HD580s into all of that and see what I've got. Then perhaps I'll just listen for years. Or maybe I'll experiment with phones. Would all of that be too cold and analytical with K701s? Maybe. But one way of looking at is that it would simply be revealing what K701s have to give without altering it much upstream. If I don't like it, I could sell them or send them back, try something else.

To those of you who have gone through lots of amps and cans, does this logic make sense?

Tim

 

[Asr]

IMO, the first thing you should do is find out what your absolute sonic preferences are, if you don't know already.

When you know what you like, you can then seek out the components that will cater to your preferences.

Achieving system synergy is a tricky thing though. Let's say you have a warm-sounding source, that you decided to get because you like warm mid-range. Ok, but then regardless of whatever cables, amps, or headphones you get, none of them will change the fact that your source sounds warm. You can't get neutral frequency response in a system based on a warm-sounding source.

If you take the road of a neutral source that'd make it easier, but more complicated because it adds more options. Where do you want the mid-range warmth? You can add it in the amp stage. Or the cable stage. Or just the headphone stage. The problem amplifies itself when you add components and somehow they don't work for you - as in, a pair of ICs might be too bright-sounding. Or the amp has a few sonic quirks that throw you off.

Hence, the road of achieving system synergy is long and complicated, and expensive. Meets and local dealers can make it less expensive.

My personal experience in achieving system synergy has definitely been expensive and at times very frustrating. However I'm at the end now and fully satisfied.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMO, the first thing you should do is find out what your absolute sonic preferences are, if you don't know already. When you know what you like, you can then seek out the components that will cater to your preferences. Achieving system synergy is a tricky thing though. Let's say you have a warm-sounding source, that you decided to get because you like warm mid-range. Ok, but then regardless of whatever cables, amps, or headphones you get, none of them will change the fact that your source sounds warm. You can't get neutral frequency response in a system based on a warm-sounding source. If you take the road of a neutral source that'd make it easier, but more complicated because it adds more options. Where do you want the mid-range warmth? You can add it in the amp stage. Or the cable stage. Or just the headphone stage. The problem amplifies itself when you add components and somehow they don't work for you - as in, a pair of ICs might be too bright-sounding. Or the amp has a few sonic quirks that throw you off. Hence, the road of achieving system synergy is long and complicated, and expensive. Meets and local dealers can make it less expensive. My personal experience in achieving system synergy has definitely been expensive and at times very frustrating. However I'm at the end now and fully satisfied.

I just looked at your equipment list in your profile. Wow. What a long expense trip it's been. I won't be going there. I'm not nearly that discriminating.

Tim

 

[odigg]

I know this is an old thread, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I've tried a lot of different headphones(ranging from the SR225 to the HD650) and I've tried them with a range of sources.

If you've got the time, interest, and money(this is the most important), playing with all your components is probably the best way to go. You can even end up with multiple systems for different moods and music genres.

However, tfarney, I'm going to guess that right now you're looking for just one headphone and trying to make an informed decision based on all the information out there. I'm the same way. I'd like to buy one headphone now, keep it for a few years (10?) and then think about a change.

Instead of trying to get a neutral source and amp, I suggest finding a headphone that has the qualities you are looking for then finding a system to match it.

I say this for a few reasons. First, because the headphones are THE part in your system that convert all those magical waves into sound, and that sound is what you are looking for. It's just like a car. No matter how you modify it, at the end of the day the most important part is the tyres because that is what contacts the road. The most important part of any system is the headphones.

I've listened to a lot of headphones lately. Actually, I've listened to a lot of headphones through a lot of different sources lately. The headphones are incredibly consistent in that their essential qualities remain no matter how you amp them. The D2000 are a velvety, smooth can, as as the HD600s. The HD650s are very laid back with a swath of bass painted over everything. The SR225 are in your face without much sound stage. The ATH-AD900 have an airy clarity nothing else I've heard matches.

These essential qualities are there on almost all sources assuming you can raise the volume of your headphone to a decent level.

However, a source can either decrease these essential qualities or add to them. I was amazed at how the headphones changed depending on sources. I've heard the D2000 range from a mostly smooth, neutral slightly bassy sound to a disgusting over the top maple syrup poured into my ears. In all my experiments the essential qualities of the D2000 where always there, sometimes brought out more or taken away, but always present. The same occurred with all the other cans.

I know amps are supposed to be "flat throughout the frequency range" but I don't think they sound that way. Some amps are warm. Some are grainy. Some are dry. Some are smooth. DSP's stages have something to do with this as well. Finding a neutral source and amp are impossible (or so I think).

Perhaps the best "proof" I have of this was a recent Cmoy I built. I switched the opamps. A rather simple 20 second change. I expected a tiny change and ended up with something much bigger. I was surprised. I know op-amps are supposed to hav a "flat" gain within the human hearing range but it simply wasn't so.

I've concluded that an amp can enhance or detract from the essential qualities of a headphone. At the same time. I don't think an amp can change the essential character of a headphone. The HD650s are laid back. Perhaps a crazy system can make them lively, but only to a certain point. If you've got the money to make the HD650s a lively pair of cans, go for it. Some people would prefer to just get the HD600.

So my advice, as stated before, is to find a headphone that has the essential qualities you want. Do this by plugging those headphones into a bunch of different sources(from as cheap to as expensive as you want). Then, when you've found the headphones that give you what you are looking for, try to find a source and amp that brings out those essential qualities to where you want them. Hopefully that source will also kill/fix (to some degree) the things you don't like about the headphones.

That being said, I still need to find a pair of headphones.

 

[rhythmdevils]

agreed. find a headphone that you like, then fine tune it with an amp, and then after that, a source.

because in order of the biggest difference in sound,

headphones > amp > source > cables

 

[Rico67]

For me it'll be :
Quality of the records>Headphone>amp>sources>cables.
It's just my personal impression.

 

[TimJo]

I don't have the level of experience that many here have in order to chime in with great authority, but I'd say that if your looking for a single system to live with, then definitely pick the headphones first.

One reason for this in my mind (and personal experience) is that of comfort. Part of this for me is that I wear glasses, and this has always been an issue with headphones over the past 30 years. Also, there is the issue of leakage, which will contribute to the choice of open or closed designs. Based on these criteria, I have ended up liking Beyers the most, and thus I own Beyers.

Once you have a set of headphones you are happy with, then use the knowledge-base of this forum to help narrow down choices of which amps have the best synergy with your headphones of choice. In the end, I think this is a valid strategy that will provide the most pleasure in your listening experience.