[jsplice]

I recently purchased a Denon DL-103 as a replacement cart to use while my Virtuoso is away for repair. I somewhat foolishly neglected the concept of cartridge/tonearm compliance and learned that the DL-103 has a low compliance, meaning that it is best matched to high mass tonearms. The Satisfy tonearm on my Clearaudio Emotion turntable is a low mass tonearm, and I think this may be the cause of some of my issues, but I'm not 100% sure. I've given the cart a good 50-60 hours of run in, and it has settled down somewhat. But on recordings that were "cut hot" (the volume of the recording is high), they sound absolutely horrible. It's as if the cartridge emanates a high amount of vibration and the tonearm can't cope with dampening those vibrations, causing treble feedback to be picked up by the cart. This seems likely because albums that are NOT cut hot sound pretty decent. But the hot albums sound so horrible and fatiguing that I can't even listen to them. Is this a symptom of a bad cart/tonearm match, or is there something else amiss here?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif somewhat foolishly neglected the concept of cartridge/tonearm compliance and learned that the DL-103 has a low compliance, meaning that it is best matched to high mass tonearms. The Satisfy tonearm on my Clearaudio Emotion turntable is a low mass tonearm, and I think this may be the cause of some of my issues, but I'm not 100% sure. I've given the cart a good 50-60 hours of run in, and it has settled down somewhat. But on recordings that were "cut hot" (the volume of the recording is high), they sound absolutely horrible. It's as if the cartridge emanates a high amount of vibration and the tonearm can't cope with dampening those vibrations, causing treble feedback to be picked up by the cart. This seems likely because albums that are NOT cut hot sound pretty decent. But the hot albums sound so horrible and fatiguing that I can't even listen to them. Is this a symptom of a bad cart/tonearm match, or is there something else amiss here?

I think you are most probably right. The Satisfy carbon is 9g so the aluminium version is probably 10-11 which is low to medium mass but it does sound from your description as though the Denon is mistracking and therefore not controlled or else underdamped. It's an old fashioned design which is why it's so popular on vintage decks but modernist designs like the Clearaudios are all about rididity.

You could try putting some rubber between the headshell and cart maybe? or loosening the screws which mount the arm to the plinth a little.

Or else pass on the Denon and go for a Sumiko Blue Point which should be about the same price and can sound pretty decent too.

 

[jsplice]

I was actually thinking about getting some small rubber washers to use between the mounting plate and the cart. That could definitely help a bit. I'd hate to go through the hassle of selling this and getting another, simply because this is just a temporary cart. But I won't be getting the Virtuoso back for 10 weeks, because Sound-Smith is pretty backed up.

 

[derekbmn]

Yeah I think your on the money also. Pretty common symptoms of a gross mismatch.(and it is) If it's only temporary, I would try increasing the mass of the tonearm with some Blu-tak etc.

It may not be pretty, but it might get you through until your other cart gets back.

 

[jsplice]

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually have already tried the blu-tack method, which doesn't seem to help much with the higher frequencies. It does seem to help improve the bass though. I'm going to stay optimistic that a few rubber washers will help even more, but I doubt it's going to do much. Anything is worth a shot at this point. I'd rather not have to deal with buying ANOTHER replacement cart. At that point I'd probably just deal with it and use my DacMagic exclusively until I get the Virtuoso back. Just have to chalk it up to my own personal mistake and part of the learning process.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anything is worth a shot at this point. I'd rather not have to deal with buying ANOTHER replacement cart.

You can easily sell your DL-103 on ebay as they are always sought after. Remember a lot of people buy them especially to tweak up so the value holds well enough.

 

[nikongod]

the published compliance of the denon DL-103 is rated at 100hz, per some standards which nobody else uses.

At the frequencies where resonances have effect (8-20hz) the compliance is more like 10 or 12. heyo for yayo, the compliance is about the same (10-12) at high frequencies too! check out the graphs of compliance VS frequency.

Anyways, what tracking weight are you using? the denon's like a little more weight IME. more tracking force is not as bad as the stylus jumping around in the groove....

After you get the stylus to stop erasing the highs, I would get the electrical loading dialed in. It should be a very sweet cart once you get it dialed in.

 

[jsplice]

Well thanks for the suggestions everyone. I tried to tweak the Denon even further by putting rubber washers between the cart and the mounting plate, and this cart still sounds way too hot in my system. I have it plenty of run-in time and plenty of tweaks and I cannot make it sound good. This is with a Cambridge Audio Azur 640p phono pre.

So, I've decided that I'll need something else. I ordered the Ortofon 2M Red from needledoctor.com. Should be here on Thursday. I have higher hopes for this cart, and should match my system better.

I really wish I could have got the Denon to work for me, but I never really could get into the sound. Either my system is just a horrible match, or it's just not for me. I prefer a smooth, musical sound, over the etchy, excited, somewhat over-emphasized detail of how the denon sounded in my system.

 

[jsplice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif the published compliance of the denon DL-103 is rated at 100hz, per some standards which nobody else uses. At the frequencies where resonances have effect (8-20hz) the compliance is more like 10 or 12. heyo for yayo, the compliance is about the same (10-12) at high frequencies too! check out the graphs of compliance VS frequency. Anyways, what tracking weight are you using? the denon's like a little more weight IME. more tracking force is not as bad as the stylus jumping around in the groove.... After you get the stylus to stop erasing the highs, I would get the electrical loading dialed in. It should be a very sweet cart once you get it dialed in.

I was actually using a tracking force of 2.5. I played around with this a lot, and also tried tweaking the VTA as well. I have the tail end way down because I know this tames high frequencies, but it just didn't tame them enough. I wouldn't say the stylus is erasing the highs for me, rather it is over-emphasizing them.

 

[omegaman]

jsplice, Sorry to jump in a thread like this, but how do you like the Emotion ? I've been looking for a pro-ject x-pack but have seen a emotion/satisfy for a great price. I would probably only be able to afford the classic wood at this time, I know they are grreat upgrades from my current debut III.

Your thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers

 

[jsplice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by omegaman /img/forum/go_quote.gif jsplice, Sorry to jump in a thread like this, but how do you like the Emotion ? I've been looking for a pro-ject x-pack but have seen a emotion/satisfy for a great price. I would probably only be able to afford the classic wood at this time, I know they are grreat upgrades from my current debut III. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers

I've had that setup for about a month and a half now, and so far I am pretty pleased. Were you looking at getting a new or used package? I know the new version includes a ceramic magnetic bearing, but even the bearing in the older version like I have seems to be very smooth. The tonearm is pretty easy to adjust, in terms of VTA, VTF, and anti-skate. I haven't had to adjust azimuth yet, so I'm not sure how easy that is on this setup.

The only bad thing about it is that it doesn't really seem to isolate vibrations from the ground and from the stand very well. A tap on the turntable stand is easily transferred up into the table. The newer version addressed this issue by included more solid feet instead of the acrylic cones.

Overall, it was quite an upgrade from my Music Hall mmf-5.1. I'm not sure how the Pro-ject sounds, so I can't make a direct comparison between the two. The deal I found on mine was killer ($800 for table, tonearm, and Virtuoso cart). However, the cantilever on the cart was sold to me bent, so I had to send it in to Sound-Smith to have it rebuilt, hence this whole post about me not liking my Denon replacement cart and purchasing the Ortofon 2M red.

 

[omegaman]

cheers jsplice,

The package is used, so it will probably be the older model. I have requested shipping prices to see what they will be. It will also be nice to hear how yours sounds with a low'ish end cart.