[bippie999]

Yikes! Last week when I compared the A5's to the new Swan D1080MkII, I had one pair running from my iMac headphone jack, and the other pair running through a USB DAC. They both sounded great, but some songs sounded better on one than the other. At first I thought the A5's generally sounded better, and with the Sub Out jacks and extra minijack on top, definitely more flexible. I also am auditioning a Subwoofer with the RCA high pass Ins and Out jacks. I was told it would work better to run the connection first to the speakers,  then out to the subwoofer. You only can do that with the A5's, so I was going to keep those. Then, yesterday I did a different comparison hookup. I connected one A5 and one Swan at the same time from the same exact source. It now seems the Swan's have an overall better sound and presence to them. The bass is more controlled and the mids and voices sound "sweeter". I can still connect a sub first from the computer or better yet, the dual rca HRT DAC, then run dual RCA cables from the sub to the Swan's and set both volumes together, and then control the total volume with iTunes, or Songbird. The Swans sound great with or without the sub, and there is good roll off of the low frequencies to high. It looks like I am going to be keeping the Swans, and besides that, they are about $100 less even after shipping.

 

[shrimants]

you cant compare them from the same source at the same time. They have different requirements for input and output. Obviously they will sound completely different. You cant compare apples to oranges. One hooked into a DAC and the other through a bottlenecked crappy internal DSP-riddled headphone jack? come on now, where's the scientist in you?

Connect one to your dac. listen to one song you know extremely well.
Now do it again with the same dac, same outputs, different speaker set.

Now do the same song, different outputs, swans, then same song, same output, A5's.

Dont change like 7 different variables and expect one to sound better than the other and give you a true representation.

 

[06S2k07Si]

 
Quote:

you cant compare them from the same source at the same time. They have different requirements for input and output. Obviously they will sound completely different. You cant compare apples to oranges. One hooked into a DAC and the other through a bottlenecked crappy internal DSP-riddled headphone jack? come on now, where's the scientist in you?

Connect one to your dac. listen to one song you know extremely well.
Now do it again with the same dac, same outputs, different speaker set.

Now do the same song, different outputs, swans, then same song, same output, A5's.

Dont change like 7 different variables and expect one to sound better than the other and give you a true representation.

Well said!
 
Brian

 

[06S2k07Si]

Some suggestions:
 
Audio engine VS Swan listener opinion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20004922#post20004922
 
See this: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/539099/2-1-advice-not-the-same-ol-thread#post_7269491
 
Anything here: http://www.theaudioinsider.com/index.php?loudspeakers=swan-active-desktop-sound&cPath=21_24
 
My Swan D1080MKII 08 review:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19882376#post19882376
 
Swan multimedia: http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=5
 
 
Brian

 

[bippie999]

 

thanks, I originally did what you said. But it is very hard for me to compare how a speaker sounds 1 minute after playing the same song on a different speaker. I finally did the connection at the same time, one Swan to the right hookup, one A5 to the left hookup. I know that is not a perfect way to compare, but as I was doing it, I could adjust output on the speakers to play at the same volume. I could go from one speaker to the next in 1 second, and I did it several ways to help eliminate some of the variables. Both speakers sound great, and there are always methods to improve sound, like speaker isolation pads, room position, dacs, etc. Based on the comparisons 3 different ways, for my ears and my desk and my needs, I lilke the Swan's better. I am going to work with Jon at Audio Insider to make sure I have the set up with my sub done properly for best integration. He claims the Swan's have better "roll off" from sub to speaker, and better resolution.
 

 

[shrimants]

"thanks, I originally did what you said. But it is very hard for me to compare how a speaker sounds 1 minute after playing the same song on a different speaker."
This just means that your ear isnt trained enough to notice a difference anyways, or that your music is of too low quality to make a difference. There is a bottleneck somewhere that is making everything sound more or less exactly the same


I finally did the connection at the same time, one Swan to the right hookup, one A5 to the left hookup.
The swanns take a certain power input, divide it within one of the speakers, and shoves part of it through the speaker cable into the other speaker. Lets call this power X watts.
The audioengines take another power input, divide it within one of the speakers, and shoves part of it through the speaker cable into the other speaker. Lets call tihs power Y watts.

If X and Y are not exactly the same, which I know they are not, your results will be flawed. If you dont have both channels hooked up, you have too much power built up within each speaker because there is not a complete circuit. Your results will be flawed.

If you have one hooked up to a DAC and the other through a headphone jack, there is a GIGANTIC bottleneck you are comparing thigns through. Would you compare a netbook to a desktop gaming machine? no. Would you compare a drift tuned subaru wrx sti to a consumer grade ford focus? no. would you compare a vespa scooter to a suzuki hayabusa turbo? hell no.

I cant find a picture of the swans so I have no idea how you are hooking them up. This is what I would recommend, though to test them.

Get your mac set up with a DAC, use foobar2000 or VLC or something with FLAC files or some other lossless media. Dont use 128kbps mp3's and complain the speakers dont sound as they should. Ideal situation is to actually put a CD in. If you own the CD i take it you should know it front and back how things should sound. Got that done?

Good. now set one pair of speakers in one spot and keep sitting in your usual spot. This will enable you to listen to the speakers in the exact audio environment you plan. There isnt any point in putting your face in front of 2 speakers and then setting the entire thing up differently later. This also eliminates any variables such as "dead spots" or resonant spots. Listen to one song on one CD that you know and then switch your speakers setup to the swans. After you have compared both through at least 3 different songs testing for soundstage, dynamic range, NOT LOUDNESS, and clarity, THEN attach the subwoofer to whatever set allows you to. DONT go through the subwoofer DAC unless you know that your dac is inferior. If you know that your dac is inferior, just go through the subwoofer dac to begin with. Keep your connections consistent, dont go between 3.5mm and RCA because that can cause a difference in quality. Dont switch to different songs between tests. Dont compare crap cquality songs. Dont compare one speaker from one set and one from another, and dont even try to bother with connecting both at the same time, they will just compliment each other.

If you want, I can write a detailed guide on how you should test them and I guarentee it'll be much better than what this random "john from audio insider" is telling you. I just need a detailed list of your hardware and the specifications of it all.

 

[06S2k07Si]

Quote:

If you want, I can write a detailed guide on how you should test them and I guarentee it'll be much better than what this random "john from audio insider" is telling you. I just need a detailed list of your hardware and the specifications of it all.

IMHO
 
As I do agree with most of what was said above, I would be very careful about what you say about people that you don't know. This "Jon" at TAI has MANY years of speaker system design experience, has excellent suggestions to system set up solutions and happens to be the founder of The Audio Insider. This can be learned by spending some considerable time conversing with him. (assuming that this was not known)
 
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/aboutus.php
 
An excellent read: http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/regeln_e.html

 

[bippie999]

Shrimants,
 
I did what you said. I hooked each set up one at a time the same way, with the speakers in the same space. I am using a 2008 iMac intel, with an HRT Streamer II+ USB DAC. I played two different HiDefinition FLAC files from HD Tracks through Songbird. The bottom line is that both set of speakers are so good, it is really hard for me to choose the "best" one! One song seems to sound a little better on the Audioengines, then a different song sounds a little better on the Swans! I've gone back and forth a dozen times and I really can't pick a winner. The good news is either one I pick will be a great decision, there is no bad decision. ( I am going "nuts" trying to decide)
 
I may have to base it on which one is easier to hook up to the DAC and if I keep the subwoofer, which works best with the sub. Please send me any other detailed instructions in testing them if you'd like, but my other question is related to using a subwoofer. You mentioned not to use the sub DAC if I have a good DAC, (which the HRT is). With the Audioengine, it seems best to run the DAC dual RCA cables to the Audioengine RCA to minijack adapter then into the back of the A5's. Then use the "sub out" RCA jacks on the A5's to run to the RCA hi-pass inputs on my sub. But with the Swans, I have to run the DAC into the sub inputs, then run RCA cables from the sub to the back of the Swan's which have dual RCA inputs. Do you see an advantage to one setup over the other. That might be the deciding factor in my decision. The Swan is about $100 less, but that is not a big factor for me.
 
By the way, I also live in Oakland County, Michigan. We should get together after this.
 
Bippie999

 

[shrimants]

Shrimants,
 
I did what you said. I hooked each set up one at a time the same way, with the speakers in the same space. I am using a 2008 iMac intel, with an HRT Streamer II+ USB DAC. I played two different HiDefinition FLAC files from HD Tracks through Songbird. The bottom line is that both set of speakers are so good, it is really hard for me to choose the "best" one! One song seems to sound a little better on the Audioengines, then a different song sounds a little better on the Swans! I've gone back and forth a dozen times and I really can't pick a winner. The good news is either one I pick will be a great decision, there is no bad decision. ( I am going "nuts" trying to decide)
 
I may have to base it on which one is easier to hook up to the DAC and if I keep the subwoofer, which works best with the sub. Please send me any other detailed instructions in testing them if you'd like, but my other question is related to using a subwoofer. You mentioned not to use the sub DAC if I have a good DAC, (which the HRT is). With the Audioengine, it seems best to run the DAC dual RCA cables to the Audioengine RCA to minijack adapter then into the back of the A5's. Then use the "sub out" RCA jacks on the A5's to run to the RCA hi-pass inputs on my sub. But with the Swans, I have to run the DAC into the sub inputs, then run RCA cables from the sub to the back of the Swan's which have dual RCA inputs. Do you see an advantage to one setup over the other. That might be the deciding factor in my decision. The Swan is about $100 less, but that is not a big factor for me.
 
By the way, I also live in Oakland County, Michigan. We should get together after this.
 
Bippie999

From what it looks like, you should have the following setup (For A5's+Sub):
Mac --> DAC (via firewire) -->(RCA) -->Audioengine Speakers --> SubOut(RCA) ---> Subwoofer.
From what it looks like, your DAC simply turns USB output from computer into RCA output. Dont do dual RCA cables. The audioengines are meant to handle the sub output, and I'm assuming it is a powered sub. There should be a low pass filter or some such thing to control the volume of the subwoofer and the crossover frequency. You dont want the dac to send a "full" audio stream to both the sub and the speakers when the speakers (A5's) are completely capable of handling the "what to send to sub" by themselves. The audio should be taking the straightest line path possible, if taht makes sense.

Now if you want to try out the D1080MKII's, I dont know how you hook those up. From the pics I see online, it looks like both have a dedicated subwoofer and dedicated tweeter output. What I assume form this is that either speaker can send power to the sub, but I dont see how to connect both speakers together. The bass/treble knobs on the swans can also change the amount of power/signal your sub is getting. Look into the manual to figure out the proper setup for it, but from what I'm seeing, have the same model as above but different wires:
Mac --> DAC (via firewire) -->(RCA) -->swan Speakers --> SubOut(speaker cable) (Left or Right???)---> Subwoofer.

Once again, there should be absolutely no reason to split your RCA connection in 2. Keep in mind that if you do that, each speaker will only get half the current it was meant to be getting. There should be 0 reason to split it unless you plan on using the split to test both speakers out, but I dont recommend it because frankly, its a pain to test one set and make sure the othe one is disconnected AND that the sub is connected.

If you wanna hang out, I go to Lawrence Tech university. I'm in southfield monday through friday and in novi the rest of the time. PM me if you wanna hang out or have a mini get together sort of deal.

BTW for flac files, it would also work if you just go to your local library and rent a CD and play that. The main focus should be using songs that will push your equipment to its limits. HD Streaming sites will barely give you enough sound quality to have you hear a difference. Sure a flac file is lossless at 16bit, 44.1/48 khz, and 1mbps bitrate, but if you are streaming it from some website, they might be converting it first. I know using linux you can make everything convert to low quality 128kbps mp3 just to deal with bandwidth issues.

The music you use should test out how low and how high the speakers can play. You can play anything from sine waves to actual songs. Here are some great bass tests:
http://sinan.ussakli.net/basstest/

Note that he provides both flac and mp3's where necessary.Use flac. Furthermore, you should be listening to how much clarity and spacing there is between individual instruments, sounds, and notes. Listen for how wide the sound is. For example, if you are listening to classical music, you should be able to close your eyes and visualize where each instrument is on the stage. If you are listening to some garage band, you should be able to pinpoint where they are and how far they are from you, their recording microphone.

IMHO
 
As I do agree with most of what was said above, I would be very careful about what you say about people that you don't know. This "Jon" at TAI has MANY years of speaker system design experience, has excellent suggestions to system set up solutions and happens to be the founder of The Audio Insider. This can be learned by spending some considerable time conversing with him. (assuming that this was not known)
 
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/aboutus.php
 
An excellent read: http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/regeln_e.html

I'm not doubting what Jon knows or doesnt know. I have no doubt that considering he's writing for a rather reputable source, he is more than qualified to be talking about stuff. What I dont agree with is people who piggyback off of others' reviews. At the end of the day, everyone's ears are different. One person may listen to dubstep and say its music while another would consider it noise. One person may say too much bass while another would say not enough. There are definately some aspects that people can listen for based on the reviews of others, but here is one example that comes to mind: Steve gutenberg from Cnet uses UE reference series. I just graduated from Bose On-Ears and Creative EP-630's. I wont know or understand half the junk gutenberg mentions in his reviews because he has more experience with all sorts of different audio things. This other person seems to be basing way too much of his choice on what jon says, and that is what I'm trying to "go against". If bippie cant tell the difference between either speaker AND doesnt know how to properly test in the first place, the proper course of action is to send one back and save yourself the money or to turn it into a truly mind-boggling 4.0 speaker system Or stack the speakers and go all out. Never was I trying to say that jon isnt qualified. Really, its me and bippie that arent qualified, if anything.

 

[JRG1990]

It depends on what kind of sub you have to how you connect it up, i have 1 with rca thru puts , so it's simply dac > sub > speakers .

 

[bippie999]

 
Quote:

From what it looks like, you should have the following setup (For A5's+Sub):
Mac --> DAC (via firewire) -->(RCA) -->Audioengine Speakers --> SubOut(RCA) ---> Subwoofer.
From what it looks like, your DAC simply turns USB output from computer into RCA output. Dont do dual RCA cables. The audioengines are meant to handle the sub output, and I'm assuming it is a powered sub. There should be a low pass filter or some such thing to control the volume of the subwoofer and the crossover frequency. You dont want the dac to send a "full" audio stream to both the sub and the speakers when the speakers (A5's) are completely capable of handling the "what to send to sub" by themselves. The audio should be taking the straightest line path possible, if taht makes sense.
 
My DAC is a USB HRT Streamer II+, which has dual R+L outputs. Those can be run into the R+L inputs on my Swan's or my old A2's. For some reason, the A5's only have a single mini-jack Input, so they include an adapter that the dual RCA dac cables plug into, and it converts the R+L into the single minijack.

Now if you want to try out the D1080MKII's, I dont know how you hook those up. From the pics I see online, it looks like both have a dedicated subwoofer and dedicated tweeter output. What I assume form this is that either speaker can send power to the sub, but I dont see how to connect both speakers together. The bass/treble knobs on the swans can also change the amount of power/signal your sub is getting. Look into the manual to figure out the proper setup for it, but from what I'm seeing, have the same model as above but different wires:
Mac --> DAC (via firewire) -->(RCA) -->swan Speakers --> SubOut(speaker cable) (Left or Right???)---> Subwoofer.
 
With the Swan's there are only Dual RCA R+L inputs, no sub output like on the A5's. Therefore I have to run the DAC > RCA R+L > Sub highpass R+L RCA Input. Then I run the highpass Output from the Sub via dual RCA cables to the Inputs of the Swan's. The powered sub has 3 knobs: one for Cutoff frequency, one for Polarity, and one for Output Volume. So the sub will play only the low frequencies, and send everything else to the Swan's. I don't know if this makes a big difference compared to the A5's which keep the higher frequencies (or maybe ALL of the frerquencies) and sends the low only? to the subs? I'm not sure.
 
Once I adjust the volume on either set of speakers and the sub, then I basically control the total volume from the source. In fact with a USB DAC, you can't control your output volume from your normal computer Volume controls, only the Source (iTunes, Songbird), and the speaker knobs.

Once again, there should be absolutely no reason to split your RCA connection in 2. Keep in mind that if you do that, each speaker will only get half the current it was meant to be getting. There should be 0 reason to split it unless you plan on using the split to test both speakers out, but I dont recommend it because frankly, its a pain to test one set and make sure the othe one is disconnected AND that the sub is connected.
 
I am NOT splliting the RCA connections like you think.

If you wanna hang out, I go to Lawrence Tech university. I'm in southfield monday through friday and in novi the rest of the time. PM me if you wanna hang out or have a mini get together sort of deal.
 
I live in Franklin, which is nearby. I'll send you a PM, and maybe you can come over and check out my system and help me test everything. I'm much older than you and I'm sure my hearing is not what it used to be!

BTW for flac files, it would also work if you just go to your local library and rent a CD and play that. The main focus should be using songs that will push your equipment to its limits. HD Streaming sites will barely give you enough sound quality to have you hear a difference. Sure a flac file is lossless at 16bit, 44.1/48 khz, and 1mbps bitrate, but if you are streaming it from some website, they might be converting it first. I know using linux you can make everything convert to low quality 128kbps mp3 just to deal with bandwidth issues.

The music you use should test out how low and how high the speakers can play. You can play anything from sine waves to actual songs. Here are some great bass tests:
http://sinan.ussakli.net/basstest/

Note that he provides both flac and mp3's where necessary.Use flac. Furthermore, you should be listening to how much clarity and spacing there is between individual instruments, sounds, and notes. Listen for how wide the sound is. For example, if you are listening to classical music, you should be able to close your eyes and visualize where each instrument is on the stage. If you are listening to some garage band, you should be able to pinpoint where they are and how far they are from you, their recording microphone.

 
Quote:

IMHO
 
As I do agree with most of what was said above, I would be very careful about what you say about people that you don't know. This "Jon" at TAI has MANY years of speaker system design experience, has excellent suggestions to system set up solutions and happens to be the founder of The Audio Insider. This can be learned by spending some considerable time conversing with him. (assuming that this was not known)
 
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/aboutus.php
 
An excellent read: http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/regeln_e.html

I'm not doubting what Jon knows or doesnt know. I have no doubt that considering he's writing for a rather reputable source, he is more than qualified to be talking about stuff. What I dont agree with is people who piggyback off of others' reviews. At the end of the day, everyone's ears are different. One person may listen to dubstep and say its music while another would consider it noise. One person may say too much bass while another would say not enough. There are definately some aspects that people can listen for based on the reviews of others, but here is one example that comes to mind: Steve gutenberg from Cnet uses UE reference series. I just graduated from Bose On-Ears and Creative EP-630's. I wont know or understand half the junk gutenberg mentions in his reviews because he has more experience with all sorts of different audio things. This other person seems to be basing way too much of his choice on what jon says, and that is what I'm trying to "go against". If bippie cant tell the difference between either speaker AND doesnt know how to properly test in the first place, the proper course of action is to send one back and save yourself the money or to turn it into a truly mind-boggling 4.0 speaker system Or stack the speakers and go all out. Never was I trying to say that jon isnt qualified. Really, its me and bippie that arent qualified, if anything.

 
 
Quote:

 

 
Quote:

 

 
Quote:

 

 

[shrimants]

Alright, that makes a ton more sense. I guess then that the only "fair" method to compare the two is to go from DAC>Sub>Speakers. I'm assuming you'll be keeping the sub rather than returning it. I like that you have to use the software source to control volume, as that means it is sending bitwise perfect audio controlled only via the software. I'm sure there is a way to send only sound data rather than volume data too. I sent you a text, we'll see how things are hooked up and what the software setup is and all. You;re pretty close to me, I live around 10 mile and Beck.

When you said RCA split, I thought you had meant like an RCA splitter, not an RCA to 3.5mm adapter. I'll bring over my laptop and I have a ton of flac files loaded up on it. Go ahead and try to audition them by switching between the two speakers via the sub.

When you say you have "Dual RCA Outputs" do you mean a left and a right channel or 2 left and 2 right channels? The pictures I saw showed only a left and right, so I'm not sure. Furthermore I dont know how that dual setup is hooked up(ie if its meant to hook up to 2 seperate sources to make it a 4.0 speaker setup rather than 2.0).

I dont know how to do it in songbird, but if you download something like VLC media player, you will be able to do a direct audio digital passthrough of data to your DAC, which will then be solely responsible for audio. It may be tricky because i have 0 experience with macs.

To review: trying to get 100% direct digital passthrough of audio data from mac to DAC, dac to sub, sub to speaker sets. Also if you have the documentation of the streamer and it actually has 2 left and 2 right inputs with the option to select between them, we could possibly just use the computer itself to switch, but it seems like that wont be possible anyways because of the subwoofer. It is really good that your sub has those settings, I have to read up on what polarity does for the sub, but it sounds like your sub is probably a nicer model anyways. If I hear from you soon enough me and my girlfriend may be able to stop by tomorrow for some time after 3 or 4 ish.

 

[bippie999]

Quote:

When you say you have "Dual RCA Outputs" do you mean a left and a right channel or 2 left and 2 right channels? The pictures I saw showed only a left and right, so I'm not sure. Furthermore I dont know how that dual setup is hooked up(ie if its meant to hook up to 2 seperate sources to make it a 4.0 speaker setup rather than 2.0).

 

I meant it has a R + L RCA output for one powered speaker hookup. The R+L rca go right into the Swan speakers.

 

I dont know how to do it in songbird, but if you download something like VLC media player, you will be able to do a direct audio digital passthrough of data to your DAC, which will then be solely responsible for audio. It may be tricky because i have 0 experience with macs.

 

I do have VLC for Mac, but I don't use it that often, it seems more cumbersome to play my music files, but we can try what you say.

 

. If I hear from you soon enough me and my girlfriend may be able to stop by tomorrow for some time after 3 or 4 ish.

 

I'll text you now, I JUST finish work in Dearborn, and I'll be home by 5:30. If not today, maybe soon, before I send back the un-needed speakers.

 

Bippie

 

 

[bippie999]

I did the hook up the way you suggested. Still too hard to tell. I also compared them both with and with DAC, with and without SUB, and one with DAC vs other with SoundCard and visa versa. Again, both sound great, but the Swan's seem to have better R to L balance of the music volume and staging. There are many variables in comparing these it's hard to do an exact test, but I'm leaning toward the Swan's.

 

[shrimants]

You cant compare one with DAC and one without DAC. the DAC is to be considered a performance enhancer because it is converting digital signal to analog instead of the built in sound card. It is also taking all that elecrical noise that is surrounding the built in headphone jack and eliminating it by, once again, taking the sound digital signal and outputting it instead of having the mac output it.

If you really cant tell, then just accept that either they sound exactly the same or your ears are making them sound exactly the same. I dont know what kinds of music you've pumped through them but at this point I would either start shoving in random types of music tests (like classical and dubstep and other stuff I dont listen to) or I would start comparing them on a different level: Price. If you truly cant tell, the logical thing to do would be to return the more expensive set.