[themuna]

Short and sweet: So I currently have the HD6XX but I want something that 1) has a wider soundstage/less intimate sound, and 2) digs deeper into the bass. Something with a different look (and preferably black in color) would be a bonus.

I understand that at the level of the HD6XX you start to get diminishing returns going up in price. I've been digging all through reviews and forums for days for best options. The ones I've mainly been tossed up between are the AKG K7XX, Hifiman Sundara, and the Focal Elear. 3 steps in price, but I'd be willing to make the leap if my needs are met. I would have already picked up the K7XX but for Drop's(formerly Massdrop) no-return policy. From what I've read it looks like the K7XX would have the most open soundstage but the muddiest sound, and the Elear would have the best bass response and overall sound but an intimate sound similar to the HD6XX. If I'm wrong about the Elear soundstage, they'd probably be my last headphone buy (or I could get the Elex for more money). I like the aesthetic and build of the Elear/Elex the most.

Any thoughts or insight would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you (in advance)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Short and sweet: So I currently have the HD6XX but I want something that 1) has a wider soundstage/less intimate sound, and 2) digs deeper into the bass. Something with a different look (and preferably black in color) would be a bonus.

Audeze LCD-2 Classic

I understand that at the level of the HD6XX you start to get diminishing returns going up in price. I've been digging all through reviews and forums for days for best options. The ones I've mainly been tossed up between are the AKG K7XX...

That's not gonna dig much deeper before the -3dB roll off point. I don't know how the earpads affect the low end response but the K702 rolls off a lot earlier than the HD650.

...Hifiman Sundara...

Might have an overall different balance of sound vs the top end than the HD6XX, and the price puts you near the LCD-2C anyway. If it was the HE400i at current prices that one would be worth a look - at least if you didn't like it that much it won't cost as much.

...and the Focal Elear.

Not sure about the Elear but I listened to the Utopia and it's not that different and only a minor improvement over my HD600.

From what I've read it looks like the K7XX would have the most open soundstage but the muddiest sound...

That's likely due more to people plugging them into high output impedance motherboards and soundcards (which happens to the K702 and K701, and the K7XX is popular with gamers) than the earpads or the drivers themselves.

The K701 sounded like a tin can with the Little Dot Mk2 and even with the reduced bass the notes lacked definition. What sounds like Thud! Thud! Thud! from the K701 driven by my Meier Cantate.2 sounded like dwuubdwuubdwuub on the OTL amp.

 

[tomb]

I agree with ProtegeManiac's comments. The K7XX is probably the best choice, if you want a larger soundstage. However, you are not going to like the bass.

You are really asking for a unicorn. The more soundstage is present, the less ability exists to provide slamming bass. Slamming bass implies a more closed-in approach to maximize the energy of the standing waves in the signal. Soundstage is improved with more open drivers, allowing the sound to pass back and forth inside and outside the driver. The two principles are in direct conflict.

Sennheiser does it as well as anyone, with very hard bass (comparatively speaking) combined with a stellar open-ness. The only thing that may improve on that is the HD800, but again, "slam" with the bass is problematic. You will get very deep extension with the HD800. I have been shocked by a thumping in the chest on certain music with the HD800 - exactly like a 20Hz or below impulse. This is something felt more than heard and it has literally been shocking to me. I have jumped up out of my chair on numerous occasions trying to see where the giant truck was that passed by my house, only to find out it was the recording, not something outside that shook the house.

All that said, you are not going to feel it in the ears like you would with a closed headphone. I would submit that much of what you hear in bass-slamming headphones are even-harmonic distortions that rise into the 50-100 Hz regions. You will get some of that with the HD6XX/etc., with less soundstage than the HD800. Better amplifiers can improve on all of this, and the Senns can readily response to amplifier improvements. Maybe that's where you should try looking for the unicorn, instead?

 

[themuna]

Audeze LCD-2 Classic




That's not gonna dig much deeper before the -3dB roll off point. I don't know how the earpads affect the low end response but the K702 rolls off a lot earlier than the HD650.




Might have an overall different balance of sound vs the top end than the HD6XX, and the price puts you near the LCD-2C anyway. If it was the HE400i at current prices that one would be worth a look - at least if you didn't like it that much it won't cost as much.




Not sure about the Elear but I listened to the Utopia and it's not that different and only a minor improvement over my HD600.




That's likely due more to people plugging them into high output impedance motherboards and soundcards (which happens to the K702 and K701, and the K7XX is popular with gamers) than the earpads or the drivers themselves.

The K701 sounded like a tin can with the Little Dot Mk2 and even with the reduced bass the notes lacked definition. What sounds like Thud! Thud! Thud! from the K701 driven by my Meier Cantate.2 sounded like dwuubdwuubdwuub on the OTL amp.

Wow. This is all very helpful info. I thought the K7XX was supposed to address the the bass of the 702 but yeah, I'm not sure.

I checked Amazon (I like their return policy) and the LCD2 was for 800 for the classic or 1000 for the wood version. The Sundara is on there for 330-350. I think Sundara prices recently dropped a lot. I'm going to try to test out the LCD2 somewhere for sure but that price....woof. Definitely can't order that one without a test.

I appreciate your time! Cheers

 

[PurpleAngel]

Short and sweet: So I currently have the HD6XX but I want something that 1) has a wider soundstage/less intimate sound, and 2) digs deeper into the bass. Something with a different look (and preferably black in color) would be a bonus.
I understand that at the level of the HD6XX you start to get diminishing returns going up in price. I've been digging all through reviews and forums for days for best options. The ones I've mainly been tossed up between are the AKG K7XX, Hifiman Sundara, and the Focal Elear. 3 steps in price, but I'd be willing to make the leap if my needs are met. I would have already picked up the K7XX but for Drop's(formerly Massdrop) no-return policy. From what I've read it looks like the K7XX would have the most open soundstage but the muddiest sound, and the Elear would have the best bass response and overall sound but an intimate sound similar to the HD6XX. If I'm wrong about the Elear soundstage, they'd probably be my last headphone buy (or I could get the Elex for more money). I like the aesthetic and build of the Elear/Elex the most.
Any thoughts or insight would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you (in advance)

What sources or DAC/amp are you plugging the HD6XX into?
A tube headphone amplifier might improve the audio quality of the 300-Ohm HD6XX.

 

[themuna]

I agree with ProtegeManiac's comments. The K7XX is probably the best choice, if you want a larger soundstage. However, you are not going to like the bass.

You are really asking for a unicorn. The more soundstage is present, the less ability exists to provide slamming bass. Slamming bass implies a more closed-in approach to maximize the energy of the standing waves in the signal. Soundstage is improved with more open drivers, allowing the sound to pass back and forth inside and outside the driver. The two principles are in direct conflict.

Sennheiser does it as well as anyone, with very hard bass (comparatively speaking) combined with a stellar open-ness. The only thing that may improve on that is the HD800, but again, "slam" with the bass is problematic. You will get very deep extension with the HD800. I have been shocked by a thumping in the chest on certain music with the HD800 - exactly like a 20Hz or below impulse. This is something felt more than heard and it has literally been shocking to me. I have jumped up out of my chair on numerous occasions trying to see where the giant truck was that passed by my house, only to find out it was the recording, not something outside that shook the house.

All that said, you are not going to feel it in the ears like you would with a closed headphone. I would submit that much of what you hear in bass-slamming headphones are even-harmonic distortions that rise into the 50-100 Hz regions. You will get some of that with the HD6XX/etc., with less soundstage than the HD800. Better amplifiers can improve on all of this, and the Senns can readily response to amplifier improvements. Maybe that's where you should try looking for the unicorn, instead?

True. I guess, that contradiction is where my difficulty is coming from. The 6XX had great sound, and I have absolutely no complaints about it on it's own. It just doesn't have much of any soundstage width to my ears.

 

[themuna]

What sources or DAC/amp are you plugging the HD6XX into?
As a tube headphone amplifier might improve the audio quality of the 300-Ohm HD6XX.

I've been using a Fiio E18 recently. I don't yet have anywhere to put a permanent set-up so it seemed a good mobile option

 

[tomb]

True. I guess, that contradiction is where my difficulty is coming from. The 6XX had great sound, and I have absolutely no complaints about it on it's own. It just doesn't have much of any soundstage width to my ears.

The way you imply a lack of soundstage, I wonder if your amplification has crosstalk issues. Outside of the K701 family and the HD800, the Senn HD580/600/650 should be one of the best soundstages available.

 

[bildar]

lcd2 closed back!

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Short and sweet: So I currently have the HD6XX but I want something that 1) has a wider soundstage/less intimate sound, and 2) digs deeper into the bass. Something with a different look (and preferably black in color) would be a bonus.

I understand that at the level of the HD6XX you start to get diminishing returns going up in price. I've been digging all through reviews and forums for days for best options. The ones I've mainly been tossed up between are the AKG K7XX, Hifiman Sundara, and the Focal Elear. 3 steps in price, but I'd be willing to make the leap if my needs are met. I would have already picked up the K7XX but for Drop's(formerly Massdrop) no-return policy. From what I've read it looks like the K7XX would have the most open soundstage but the muddiest sound, and the Elear would have the best bass response and overall sound but an intimate sound similar to the HD6XX. If I'm wrong about the Elear soundstage, they'd probably be my last headphone buy (or I could get the Elex for more money). I like the aesthetic and build of the Elear/Elex the most.

Any thoughts or insight would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you (in advance)

Hifiman Edition X V2 if you can find one.


https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649432190-hifiman-edition-x-v2/

https://www.audioadvice.com/hifiman...MI856PjtLE4gIVUhh9Ch08UA1IEAkYAiABEgIQRfD_BwE


https://hifiheaven.net/shop/HiFiMAN...MI856PjtLE4gIVUhh9Ch08UA1IEAkYBCABEgK4W_D_BwE

 

[buke9]

The way you imply a lack of soundstage, I wonder if your amplification has crosstalk issues. Outside of the K701 family and the HD800, the Senn HD580/600/650 should be one of the best soundstages available.

The 600 and 650’s have some of the best soundstages available really?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Wow. This is all very helpful info. I thought the K7XX was supposed to address the the bass of the 702 but yeah, I'm not sure.

Having flat earpads probably helps boost the bass since the drivers are closer to the ears. If you press your earcups closer to your ears on any headphone, same thing happens, but there's another thing happening: you're also making the earpad more dense by compressing it. I doubt AKG used a drastically different material.

Given how many gamers bought it though chances are the muddiness comes from hooking them up to a high output impedance soundcard. Zero issues when my Cantate.2 drives AKGs - the K702 is borderline Grado-ish for how the bass drum can pound, except it's not in your face.

I checked Amazon (I like their return policy) and the LCD2 was for 800 for the classic or 1000 for the wood version. The Sundara is on there for 330-350. I think Sundara prices recently dropped a lot. I'm going to try to test out the LCD2 somewhere for sure but that price....woof. Definitely can't order that one without a test.

Your best bet is the old pre-Fazor LCD-2 that is now the LCD-2 Classic, not the current $1000 Fazor driver version.

True. I guess, that contradiction is where my difficulty is coming from. The 6XX had great sound, and I have absolutely no complaints about it on it's own. It just doesn't have much of any soundstage width to my ears.

Its strength is proportional soundstage, not width.

I've seen some people commenting that Grados have great wide soundstage, but if you really think about it, that's like the Fantastic Four giving up the superhero life to go on tour as a band, with Mr Fantastic pounding the drums, since "wide soundstage" to them means "cymbals waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out to where the guitars are." In other words, you need a dude with really long arms to work the drums.

The 600 and 650’s have some of the best soundstages available really?

He's referring to proportionality, not size.

 

[themuna]

The way you imply a lack of soundstage, I wonder if your amplification has crosstalk issues. Outside of the K701 family and the HD800, the Senn HD580/600/650 should be one of the best soundstages available.

I only have the 6XX, not the 600 or 580 but definitely not to me. My 598s seem to have a much wider sound stage in comparison but they have almost no bass without EQing