Sundara balanced on Zen DAC - very loud!

[rocdoc]

Hi everyone,
I was searching for a good system for my main headphone listening station - in my bedroom, for some nice sessions after the kiddo goes to bed, my chance for me time My old AKG K702s were great, but the headband had lost all resistance after several years of hanging on a holder in my office, so I needed something new. After a bit of research I thought I'd try my first electrostatics, and bought the Hifiman Sundara. I also went for the iFi Zen DAC, because I wanted the option of hearing the MQA files off Tidal (I am well aware of the MQA controversy, this isn't about that). It turns out that this combo is actually considered a great match and is well reviewed. I'm using it balanced with a Newfantasia cable off Amazon - the cable that came with the cans does look flimsy and cheap, as the reviews said, and everyone seems to think the sound is a lot better balanced. Have not A-B'd it yet.
The issue I have is that, with "power match" on, this thing gets really loud for my ears and listening preferences. I end up keeping it just above the cutoff where the sound gets imbalanced. Yes, without power match it gives me more room, but it really seems that the sound is significantly better with it on - seems to bring out more openness and dynamics to the sound. Has anyone else using this combo experienced this? What do you do? I have a suspicion that there is no actual solution, so I may just be venting, but I'm curious.
Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[539465]

send the ZEN DAC back and get the ZEN CAN it stops the Sundara from being rolled off bass and helps the soundstage, then just buy an old expensive amp used cheap from ebay later and upgrade to ipower for the Zen CAN when you can

 

[doctorstrobe]

The power match is a kind of automatic gain increase based on the impedance of the headphone. You don’t need to use it. You could add the Zen Can which is a much more powerful amp. I’m using it right now with my Sundaras.

One thing I would point out is that New Fantasia cable is probably causing some sound quality decrease. I tried one but was shocked that it caused kind of a fuzz distortion. I suspect it’s kind of a scam product using the lowest grade wire they could get. Sent it back. Normally I don’t think cables make a difference but that thing was sub-standard.

 

[rocdoc]

One thing I would point out is that New Fantasia cable is probably causing some sound quality decrease. I tried one but was shocked that it caused kind of a fuzz distortion. I suspect it’s kind of a scam product using the lowest grade wire they could get. Sent it back. Normally I don’t think cables make a difference but that thing was sub-standard.

that’s worrisome. I had seen posts about them and folks seemed to like them. Any recommendations on alternative balanced cable options? Thanks

 

[doctorstrobe]

You should do your own comparison with the stock cable but for me I could hear a problem with it. It was just last week so I haven’t picked an alternative yet. Was looking at Hart Audio cables. Link

 

[rlanger]

that’s worrisome. I had seen posts about them and folks seemed to like them. Any recommendations on alternative balanced cable options? Thanks

I don't have the balanced version of this cable, just the single-ended, but when I do decide to get a balanced cable, it will be from Audiophile Ninja. Incredibly well-built, sounds great and extremely affordable for such a high-quality cable. Can't recommend it highly enough:

Audiophile Ninja

Oh, and almost forgot.... outstanding customer service.

 

[pk4425]

I received my 4.4-mm balanced to 3.5-mm dual cable today from Audiophile Ninja for my HiFiMan HE-400se when used with my iFi hip-dac. Wow -- what an impressive piece of kit for $70. Super build and sound. Arrived four days after I ordered it. Came with a cool keychain-bottle opener and pen, too -- bonus!

I will look to Audiophile Ninja first for all of my aftermarket headphone cables. Super impressed!

 

[rocdoc]

I actually replaced the Newfantasia with a Hart cable, and it sounds better to my ears - but note that I have not done a direct comparison, and my headphones are burning in, so not really a fair comparison. Still loud, but I learned to live with either turning the power match off or keeping it on and lowering the volume to just above minimum. It works. The dynamics are clearly better with the power match on, and the sound seems more natural, but this setup is no slouch without it either.

 

[HipHopScribe]

As far as I know, power match is just a gain button. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's the case your impression that your headphones sound better with power match on is probably just in your head. No offense, psychoacoustics affect everyone's listening impressions. Your headphones are probably just louder, and we can sometimes perceive louder as better.

So, just keep the gain lower and listen to your headphones.

 

[rocdoc]

@HipHopScribe I’m definitely open to the possibility that it’s in my head - after all, that’s where my ears are too! But my understanding is that this button actually changes the power output - that would be compatible with a change in dynamics. Anyway, I’m enjoying the music either way, no worries

 

[collegeboi97]

I’m in similar situation but with hip-dac and using newfantasia 4.4mm balanced cable with my Sundara headphones. Initially I got this set thinking I could use it in office for portability but the noise leak from surrounding muffles somewhat what I can listen so I just use them at home now. I also struggle with pedometer just above or around cutoff where it gets slightly unbalanced, I find better for use with my desktop where I can turn it up on hip-dac and turn down on media player app than on the phone where volume is exclusively controlled by hip-dac which kinda defeats its purpose for “portability”.

I didn’t really notice distortion though when listening to voice of Billie Ellish on soundtrack “Your Power”, sometimes her voice sounds in some parts little buzzy or sibilant. Not sure if was really distortion or headphones so good revealing flaw details from the recording studio.

I did notice bass little bit light on lower end but again heard this is signature profile of Sundara which can be corrected with EQ by boosting 30Hz by 7.3db, which I applied and it helps.

The soundstage though is ok, not very wide. Not sure if bringing more powerful desktop amp such as Zen Can would widen soundstage and improve the precision of imaging?

I use mostly Spotify and Apple Music with lossless feature turn on. Only about 5% of the songs are high-res, the rest is CD quality up to 24bit 44Hz. Thinking if I should keep hip-dac and just add Zen CAN using 4.4mm interconnect cable, or if I need full desktop stack like zen dac/can or modi/magni

I don’t think going with more expensive balanced stack that cost more than these headphones make sense.

 

[AlexFL]

I've sent ZEN DAC back, it had good power but detail retrieval was not as good comparing to my NWZX507 and M11Pro. I also sent New Fantasia balanced SPC back when AB it with KK cable form Amazon. SPC was too bright and it reduced bass and mostly lower mids comparing to stock. KK is great but I'm tempted to try Ninja. Have anyone try Zen Can with Sundaras?

 

[collegeboi97]

I've sent ZEN DAC back, it had good power but detail retrieval was not as good comparing to my NWZX507 and M11Pro. I also sent New Fantasia balanced SPC back when AB it with KK cable form Amazon. SPC was too bright and it reduced bass and mostly lower mids comparing to stock. KK is great but I'm tempted to try Ninja. Have anyone try Zen Can with Sundaras?

If you have balanced cable, and you’ll get zen CAN, I wonder if you weren’t better off keeping zen dac for pre-amp output unless you plan to use SE or have balanced DAC already and plan to use interconnect cable with XLR to 4.4.
Though with headphones balanced vs SE I don’t think it really matters and it matters more if you use portable dac/amp where using balanced connection has benefit of double power output.

 

[AlexFL]

If you have balanced cable, and you’ll get zen CAN, I wonder if you weren’t better off keeping zen dac for pre-amp output unless you plan to use SE or have balanced DAC already and plan to use interconnect cable with XLR to 4.4.
Though with headphones balanced be SE I don’t think it really matters and it matters more if you use portable dac/amp where using balanced connection has benefit of double power output.

I wanted to test Sundaras with even more power comparing to what my DAPs 4.4 can provide. I enjoy them the most with Sony 507 4.4 and it drives them decent with good bass thump but still at around 400Mw. Few folks mentioned that they need over 1000Mw 32 shine so I've just ordered Zen Can and 4.4 to 4.4 cable, will test with my DAPs and DACs tomorrow

 

[collegeboi97]

I wanted to test Sundaras with even more power comparing to what my DAPs 4.4 can provide. I enjoy them the most with Sony 507 4.4 and it drives them decent with good bass thump but still at around 400Mw. Few folks mentioned that they need over 1000Mw 32 shine so I've just ordered Zen Can and 4.4 to 4.4 cable, will test with my DAPs and DACs tomorrow

Nice, can’t wait for your opinion, as I have Sundaras also with hip-dac (which IMO only has slightly more power than zen dac) with 400mW on 4.4mm balanced cable from NewFantasia. I noticed they are bit light on bass unless I use xbass button and while they sound good, I seem to get more resolution when I stand listening in the middle of my stereo paired Homepods (which are limited to 24/48kHz playback and are not audiophile product)