Summit-Fi Random Thoughts

[Hiker816]

There's basically been a plateau since the early 90s. New tech has come in but the top headphones then are still in the mix now.

Sennheiser he90 (I haven't heard the he1 but head-fi reports say most prefer the he90/T2)
Stax sr-omega (imo the best they ever made)
Joseph Grado hp-1000 (this is actually a great dynamic headphone, despite grado's now mid-fi sound)
Sony mdr-r10

The SR1a equivalate would have been the sr-sigma and k1000

I understand what you're saying with the rest of them, but I see the RAAL ribbons as new and different tech--very different from the Sr-sigma or the K1000. No?

 

[Ciggavelli]

There's basically been a plateau since the early 90s. New tech has come in but the top headphones then are still in the mix now.

Sennheiser he90 (I haven't heard the he1 but head-fi reports say most prefer the he90/T2)
Stax sr-omega (imo the best they ever made)
Joseph Grado hp-1000 (this is actually a great dynamic headphone, despite grado's now mid-fi sound)
Sony mdr-r10

The SR1a equivalate would have been the sr-sigma and k1000

I need to hear those headphones. I've only heard the HE-1 from the classics you listed. I wish they weren't so hard to find and at a steep cost.

The SR1a is like the K1000 in design, but the driver tech is new, so that's why I think it's the last big advancement we've had. I'd also say the Abyss 1266 is a new advancement too, in that you wear them with a loose fitting and the bass becomes subwoofer like, which you don't really get with other headphones (maybe the th900mk2 or CA-1a though).

 

[Ciggavelli]

You may be right. Planar and Dynamic tech may have plateaued. Ribbon and E-stat tech as well, depending who you ask, though the X9000 gets a lot of love. I'm still surprised we don't see multiple different drivers in a single ear cup like we do in IEMs (not counting the Heavy H1H.) That would seem like the next obvious transition. A woofer, and a tweeter added to a typical driver - but maybe that's asking a lot. Either way, new stuff will continue to come out. Maybe the new Warwick stuff counts as better than the Sus and TC, but I haven't heard any of them, so I sure don't know.

I've also thought that we need to see different drivers in a single ear cup. I was speaking to an Audio-Technica rep in a private channel and he said it's not possible to have multiple drivers in a traditional earcup because of cross contamination and the angles of things (I'm not an engineer, so I'm probably not explaining it well). Basically the sound waves interact with each other in a way that makes it near impossible to have multiple different drivers. With IEMs apparently it's not an issue, due to the smaller length they need to go to get to your eardrum

 

[Ciggavelli]

I don't know where to put this, but the new Lucifer album is good. I've listened to it like 10 times already and it just came out on Friday

 

[number1sixerfan]

The last real innovation in headphones was the SR1a (and that was a few years ago). The TC/Sus $6K headphones have been around for a while too, and nothing really beats them. The $4K level ones don’t beat them in my opinion, but you all are right in that there have been several new entries. They just don’t beat the TC/Sus wall. Maybe we can’t get better headphones than those two, and planar and dynamic technologies have simply reached a plateau.

I basically agree that nothing fully outclasses the Sr1a, TC and Sus. And subjectively speaking I'm sure others have some other products in that class. New flagships in an accessible price range for many will be really low and slow to launch. And I'm not sure when that will be.

There's basically been a plateau since the early 90s. New tech has come in but the top headphones then are still in the mix now.

Sennheiser he90 (I haven't heard the he1 but head-fi reports say most prefer the he90/T2)
Stax sr-omega (imo the best they ever made)
Joseph Grado hp-1000 (this is actually a great dynamic headphone, despite grado's now mid-fi sound)
Sony mdr-r10

The SR1a equivalate would have been the sr-sigma and k1000

I think this is the accurate framing. I've always said that the tech definitely innovates and will keep doing so, but it's not leaps and bounds better than flagships of yesterday. But I think it completely depends on what you're into. From a resolution standpoint, things like the x9000 and Sr1a/CA1a, TC/Sus, are definitely just at a higher resolving level, but that does also come at the cost of tonality, which none of these can compare to what you've listed here imho. Tonality and particularly magic in the midrange/vocals, the older headphones have the new TOTLs beat for me.

I understand what you're saying with the rest of them, but I see the RAAL ribbons as new and different tech--very different from the Sr-sigma or the K1000. No?

Yea the Raal is definitely different. And I owned both for a while. This was one rare scenario where I felt like the Raal was just COMPLETELY better than the K1000. They both have the same bass issues, and I think the K1000 to a slightly lesser degree, but besides that, the Sr1a is just way better in every way. I was definitely surprised.


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edit* I think there's more opportunity to fill out product lines with more affordable products that drive value. I honestly think we have enough flagships. I like what DCA, ZMF and I'm sure a few others have done in dropping models that just don't push the price point forward, rather affordable models that can sound pretty good. The Tungsten is another really good example of this, performing really well at it's more affordable price point. That's honestly what I think the hobby needs more of.

 

[SolarCetacean]

From what I've seen with IEMs, multi-driver designs have each driver firing into a chamber in front of the nozzle where the wavefronts from each driver combine so that your eardrum is only sensing a single waveform that's a combination of all of the drivers' contributions. With over-ears, it's not really possible to do the same sort of multi-driver setup while retaining a normal headphone earcup shape because the wavefront from each driver will hit your outer ear at a different angle, which causes different reflections, which can interfere with the wavefronts from the other drivers, and it all results in a jumbled mess. Even if it could work in theory, different ears would result in different reflection patterns and different wearing positions would again change the reflections so such a setup would be very acoustically unreliable. Using the combining chamber method is impractical in over-ears, because the resulting contraption would be extremely large.

There are a few multi-driver over-ear headphones, I think one of the older Final Audio designs used a giant BA driver in conjunction with a dynamic, but they all tend to sound a bit odd from what I've read. Some gaming headsets try the multi-driver thing too to have that surround sound, but I've also never read of one that sounds better than a normal headphone of the same tier. Then there is the very unusual design from Crosszone where each earcup contains a small driver that plays the opposite channel's signal to physically produce the crossfeed effect. I think some of the Crosszone designs also use a third driver in each earcup that acts like a subwoofer driver. I'm quite curious to hear a Crosszone at some point, as they do have their fans, but they're extremely hard to find or demo. I think Mimic Audio is the only seller in the US.

 

[Ciggavelli]

From what I've seen with IEMs, multi-driver designs have each driver firing into a chamber in front of the nozzle where the wavefronts from each driver combine so that your eardrum is only sensing a single waveform that's a combination of all of the drivers' contributions. With over-ears, it's not really possible to do the same sort of multi-driver setup while retaining a normal headphone earcup shape because the wavefront from each driver will hit your outer ear at a different angle, which causes different reflections, which can interfere with the wavefronts from the other drivers, and it all results in a jumbled mess. Even if it could work in theory, different ears would result in different reflection patterns and different wearing positions would again change the reflections so such a setup would be very acoustically unreliable. Using the combining chamber method is impractical in over-ears, because the resulting contraption would be extremely large.

There are a few multi-driver over-ear headphones, I think one of the older Final Audio designs used a giant BA driver in conjunction with a dynamic, but they all tend to sound a bit odd from what I've read. Some gaming headsets try the multi-driver thing too to have that surround sound, but I've also never read of one that sounds better than a normal headphone of the same tier. Then there is the very unusual design from Crosszone where each earcup contains a small driver that plays the opposite channel's signal to physically produce the crossfeed effect. I think some of the Crosszone designs also use a third driver in each earcup that acts like a subwoofer driver. I'm quite curious to hear a Crosszone at some point, as they do have their fans, but they're extremely hard to find or demo. I think Mimic Audio is the only seller in the US.

Thanks for that. That was kinda what I was trying to say. I've heard bad things about the Crosszone, but I've never heard it personally. It has never been on my radar, but it might be now.

Also, I see you are in DC. I used to live in Arlington (Ballston), and DC is cool. Are you in the city proper?

 

[Ciggavelli]

I was just thinking, this hobby is outrageous. The price we spend for great sound is astonishing. It has completely ruined my perception of money. Like, I'm building a new pc because my previous one completely bricked (I can't even get into the bios and the mobo won't recognize any keyboard), and it's gonna cost like $8k, and I'm like that's nothing. That's not a big cost at all. In reality, an $8k pc is insane (I do custom water cooling though). The audiophile situation has completely warped my perception of what a good value is.

 

[HiFiWar]

I've also thought that we need to see different drivers in a single ear cup. I was speaking to an Audio-Technica rep in a private channel and he said it's not possible to have multiple drivers in a traditional earcup because of cross contamination and the angles of things (I'm not an engineer, so I'm probably not explaining it well). Basically the sound waves interact with each other in a way that makes it near impossible to have multiple different drivers. With IEMs apparently it's not an issue, due to the smaller length they need to go to get to your eardrum

Well, whether it's possible or not, Heavy already did it with the H1H. I'm not saying they did it well, but they have 4 drivers per ear. I'd like to see a wired high-end version of that.

 

[SolarCetacean]

Thanks for that. That was kinda what I was trying to say. I've heard bad things about the Crosszone, but I've never heard it personally. It has never been on my radar, but it might be now.

Also, I see you are in DC. I used to live in Arlington (Ballston), and DC is cool. Are you in the city proper?

Right, I was supporting what you said regarding your conversation with the Audio Technica person. And yes, I'm in DC proper. I've read impressions from someone who likes the Crosszone as a bedtime headphone. The design makes it easy to lean back into a pillow and the crossfeed makes it relaxed and not fatiguing. But I've also read that it's not very technical, it ironically breaks any sort of binaural recording meant for headphones (terrible for gaming as well), and most people who spend that much (1K+) on a headphone are doing it for the technicalities. Nevertheless, I'm always on the hunt for esoteric headphones.

The audiophile situation has completely warped my perception of what a good value is.

Truer words have never been spoken! I recall being unfussed by the price of the RTX 4090 when it was announced. Everyone else seemed to be up in arms about its $1600 price, but I was like "that's the price of an HD800S; a fair price for a flagship product". Complaining that something is $500 just seem quaint, yet I realize that $500 is a significant sum to most people, so I consider myself extremely fortunate.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Truer words have never been spoken! I recall being unfussed by the price of the RTX 4090 when it was announced. Everyone else seemed to be up in arms about its $1600 price, but I was like "that's the price of an HD800S; a fair price for a flagship product". Complaining that something is $500 just seem quaint, yet I realize that $500 is a significant sum to most people, so I consider myself extremely fortunate.

Definitely. I couldn't find a new 4090 FE, so I just purchased one nonchalantly on ebay for $2100. Most people are like you spent $8k on a PC rig? What? I'm like, pc gaming is my "cheap" hobby

The price of summit-fi s- is really outrageous though. We are fortunate enough to be able to play in this arena. I like that Raal made the CA an "affordable" $2500, but then they go out and charge $9500 for their new headphones

At some point, we're gonna have to say "no."

 

[Chefguru]

I understand what you're saying with the rest of them, but I see the RAAL ribbons as new and different tech--very different from the Sr-sigma or the K1000. No?

My comment was that new technology has come in, but the old guard is still just as good - so it's more lateral development. Dynamic/planar amps have been solved for a long time ago. Estats have been solved for over the last 10 years with KG's work. Dacs have had the most consistent improvement since the 90s, but now are at their ceiling.

Even though the new RAAL flagship is insultingly expensive, if they really have furthered pushed the technology, I would be happy. Instead I think what a lot of us fear is that the headphone is still in the same tier as the rest but is priced very high to grandstand. While I ultimately wasn't a fan of the x9000, it was clear that stax put a lot of work into trying to make a modern sr-omega with improved reliability. They were unsuccessful (both common driver failure and worse performance), but did manage to develop a good shell for what I think, once tweaked, will be an excellent x9000S.

 

[Ciggavelli]

My comment was that new technology has come in, but the old guard is still just as good - so it's more lateral development. Dynamic/planar amps have been solved for a long time ago. Estats have been solved for over the last 10 years with KG's work. Dacs have had the most consistent improvement since the 90s, but now are at their ceiling.

Even though the new RAAL flagship is insultingly expensive, if they really have furthered pushed the technology, I would be happy. Instead I think what a lot of us fear is that the headphone is still in the same tier as the rest but is priced very high to grandstand. While I ultimately wasn't a fan of the x9000, it was clear that stax put a lot of work into trying to make a modern sr-omega with improved reliability. They were unsuccessful (both common driver failure and worse performance), but did manage to develop a good shell for what I think, once tweaked, will be an excellent x9000S.

This reminds me of @protoss . I like his, perhaps trolling, posts, but I think a lot of people are stuck in the past. I haven't heard a lot of the older classics, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think some people have a rose colored view of the past headphones. I'm a "new" type of person. I want the latest and greatest. I mean, I exchanged my 2.5mm Sus for the 3.5mm one because I just like newer s-. But, I know I'm biased in that regard. I guess I'm a headphone ageist, if that is the right word.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Also, I think I'm losing some hearing in my left ear. I had a problem with my SR, with the left side sounding off. I think it just amplified my hearing issues, and there really isn't something wrong with the headphones; something is wrong with my hearing. It really worries me, actually. I need to see an ear doctor, whatever the proper name of them is. One of my worst fears is losing hearing, so this s- is serious. I try to listen at a reasonabl 80-85db, but that might have f-ed up my hearing. Somebody in the past said the TCs would blow out my eardrums. I thought he was just using hyperbole, but he might have been right.

 

[Chefguru]

This reminds me of @protoss . I like his, perhaps trolling, posts, but I think a lot of people are stuck in the past. I haven't heard a lot of the older classics, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think some people have a rose colored view of the past headphones. I'm a "new" type of person. I want the latest and greatest. I mean, I exchanged my 2.5mm Sus for the 3.5mm one because I just like newer s-. But, I know I'm biased in that regard. I guess I'm a headphone ageist, if that is the right word.

It wasn't a case of nostalgia when I compared my x9000 to another head-fi'ers sr-omega.
Perhaps it was a case of nostalgia when I compared my hp-1000 to the gs-3000x I was loaned.

Regarding your hearing, while not ENT level, there is a decent hearing test app for the iphone that can use airpod pro's with decently reliable results. I compared my test results with a professional reading and they were within 5% of each other.