Suggestions for high storage capacity portable FLAC players for a lossless newbie
May 12, 2010 at 12:30 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

edpoz

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I have apprx 4600 mp3/wma tracks that I listen to primarilty when I workout (Elliptical X-trainer) and have upgraded my cans to HD650/AH-D2000/DT 990 600ohm and portable amps to Triad Lisa III/iQube V1 and now figure that before I go any further, I need to go to the lossless format. Sound quality being the biggest factor, but I also want enough storage capacity so that I can play any track at any time without inserting memory chip into the player (rules out the very impressive HiFiMAN HM-801 Player). FLAC seems the way to go, but looking at portable compatable players the largest storage that I've seen is a Rio Karma w/ 128GB SSHD or an 160GB ipod classic and use Apple lossless, but I have steered completely away from Apple in the past. Any suggestions from the very seasoned lossless Head-Fier aficionados would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Ed
 
 
May 12, 2010 at 4:20 PM Post #3 of 16
If you can afford to drop the cash on a solidstate or CF modded Rio Karma: DO IT.
 
I won't mention the guy's name or anything (probably breaking a rule or something, right?), but are the SSD Karmas you see the ones that are on eBay advertised as a $14.77 "upgrade service?" If so, I can vouch for that seller. I have bought Karma parts from him in the past, and he is top-notch.
 
I have a 60 GB HDD modded one myself, and I have found nothing better. I have gone out of my way to keep it in good repair for the past 5 years now. I recently have picked up a Sansa Fuze to play with, but even with Rockbox, the user interface is nowhere near as good as the Karma. The playlisting capabilities of this player alone are simply fantastic. I will admit that I have heard better sounding players than the Karma, but I'm sure you know it is still a well-respected player in terms of sound quality. A month ago, I was ready to replace my Karma, but after shopping around a bit, I realized it was worth it just to fix the thing, because while there are many nice DAPs out these days, nor single player has every feature I like about the Karma.
 
I could go on and on about how much I love the Rio Karma. However, I don't want to sound like a fanboy, so I will post a couple of drawbacks I can think of::
 
-It doesn't work with Windows 7 over USB without some workarounds. However, you can use the dock's ethernet connection or run Virtual XP. The same is true if you are a Mac user - again, I have used my Karma on a Mac over ethernet and it works fine, albeit a bit slow compared to USB 2.0. If you have a Windows XP PC, you should have no problem whatsoever, but be aware that using it with another OS can be a pain in the butt.
 
-There is no true line out, digital out, or LOD capability on this player. The dock has RCA outputs, but they are still affected by EQ. Building a DIY LOD for the Karma would be impossible (without internal modifications to the Karma) because plugging an unpowered dock into the dock connector will drain the battery in about an hour. On the other hand, the headphone out is quite robust, and the RCA line out is adequate. I have never personally felt the Karma was limited in this regard, but I know some folks here prefer players with a real line out. Personally, I mostly use my Karma in the car with an RCA>AUX adapter I installed, and it sounds excellent with a flat EQ and volume set to 29 (out of 30, apparently the same volume output the dock uses). I think it sounds great. The only other sound quality issue worth bringing up is that the LCD sometimes causes a faint whine from the headphone out. The HDD can also be quite noisy, but since you are looking for a solidstate modded Karma, that's a moot point.
 
- You will probably end up buying spare parts for it because certain things break. If you are one of those types who treats their DAP like a newborn baby, you will probably be fine, but if you plan to do a lot of rugged activity with it, be prepared to do some repairs over time. Luckily, you can get whatever you need on eBay. As I said before, if you have seen that seller who does the "upgrade service," I recommend him. there also used to be a good parts site based out of Canada called karmalimbo.com, but I think that guy went out of business.
 
I can't think of any other negatives, so I'll just close by saying, "Get the damn Karma, man. You won't regret it!"
 
If you have any questions at all about the Rio Karma, please feel free to direct them my way. I have been using (and repairing) one for so long I feel like I truly know the player inside and out.
 
May 12, 2010 at 4:51 PM Post #4 of 16
Transcoding MP3 to FLAC will result in absolutely no change to sound quality - if that's how you intend to go about things. To get the advantage of FLAC, you need to either buy FLAC-format music or re-rip CDs to FLAC. Not sure if you already knew this, it was hard to tell from the initial post.
 
May 12, 2010 at 4:59 PM Post #5 of 16
I rip all my cd's to apple lossless in itunes. I put the tracks on my touch's and my wadia transport > very enjoyable music to my ears.
 
 
David
 
May 13, 2010 at 3:03 AM Post #7 of 16
I'll second the rockboxed 5.5g iPod Video which is 80gb with the possability of expanding up to 240gb playing FLAC.
Then you always have the option to DIYMod or iMod. But that becomes very expensive. A standard 5.5g iPod is still a very good source.
 
May 13, 2010 at 8:46 AM Post #8 of 16
Decisions? Decisions?  Rio Karma w/ 240GB SSHD or the Rockboxed 5.5g iPod w/ 240GB HD and iMod?  Has anyone compared the two sources?  Also, wouldm't it be less expensive to get the 40GB 5.5g ipod and then upgrade to the 240GB drive?
 
Thanks!
 
Ed
 
May 13, 2010 at 9:58 AM Post #9 of 16
You can only get the 240GB HDD to fit in the iPod if it's an 80GB 5.5G or a 60GB 5G because they are bigger (same length and width, but thicker depth) and have the space for it.
 
I used to have a Rio Karma - it was my first DAP - but it got stolen when I got mugged. It was years ago so I have trouble recalling how it sounded though, but AFAIK it's much easier to get a 2nd hand iPod 5/5.5G than the Rio.
 
May 13, 2010 at 10:02 AM Post #10 of 16
I reckon it's cheaper and easier to just get a pre-modded with 240GB, unless you can get a 5.5G under $100. I've got the 80GB but instead of hdd upgrade, I'm considering a Cowon J3 since I already have 2x 16GB microsdhc cards. YMMV of course.
 
May 13, 2010 at 5:02 PM Post #11 of 16
I wrote a long PM response to the OP, and decided it seemed like a waste not to post it here. Edpoz basically just asked me to elaborate my comment about better-sounding players, describe what features I liked about the Karma, and explain what sort of headphones and/or amps I used with mine.
 
 
Quote:
Hey! Let's see if I can answer these questions. I've heard a lot of players that sound worse than the Karma, that's for sure. The only ones I have thought sounded a little bit better have been the Sansa flash players -I have owned an e200 and a Fuze. Obviously, they don't have the storage of the Karma, but they do seem to sound a bit crisper overall. I also remember auditioning a 4th Gen iPod that I thought was on par with the Karma, but seemed to have tighter bass, but that was a long time ago, and maybe it was just the EQ settings I was using at the time.
 
I think I am a little biased. I have gotten very used to the Karma after 5 years of ownership, so maybe the sound seems a bit dull to me now. Also, I got a bit lazy about the EQ settings, and I almost always leave the EQ off these days. As I think I mentioned, I mostly use it in my car (Through a Blitz audio RCA input and into a pretty basic Infinity stereo system), so I just got in the habit of leaving the EQ off. The Karma's rep for great sound quality is partly based on its excellent EQ. In fact, there is a whole FAQ about how to optimize the settings here. It really is a great sounding player. probably not the best ever, but great. There are still times I get into my car, crank up the stereo, and say out loud, "damn, this sounds good."
 
The features of the Karma, I could go on for awhile about. Let me just say that the controls are extremely intuitive, and have an almost analogue feel. You've got the red stick (officially called a "Riostick," but most people on the Rio forums liked to call the "nipple") and the scroll wheel. The nipple is really useful for basic functions like play, pause, etc, but can also be used to navigate the menus. Once you get the hang of the Karma, you will find that you can use the nipple and wheel in various combinations to navigate very fast.I've never seen another player that has two control inputs quite like this, that can do some of the same functions, but also can do their own things. The scroll wheel on the thing is fantastic, and once you learn how to use it for on-the-fly playlisting, most other DAPs will seem a bit weak in comparison. The Karma lets you insert, append, remove, and re-order tracks on the now playing list while listening to music. I know Rockbox does this too, but having used both, I can tell you the Karma's system is waaay simpler and better. Also, you can create an entire playlist on the player and save it, even if it has nothing to do with what you are listening to at that moment. Rio DJ is a great feature too,a nd I use it all the time. Basically, it just makes you a random mix based on certain criteria, like genre, decade, play count, or you can just say "make me a random mix that is 3 hours long" if you want. It's a cool feature, and very handy for me since I keep audiobooks and stuff on there, and don't want every single track of an audiobook coming up in my music shuffle!
 
Oh yeah, there's the whole gapless thing of course. #1 reason why I bought the player. Gapless really was a "feature" back then. Thank god (and rockbox) that it's more common now.
 
What I'm telling you here is the same stuff any Karma owner will probably say. When asked "why do you like your Karma," the three things they usually say are "gapless, EQ, and on-the-fly playlists." It starts to sound like rampant fanboyism at some point, but when you use one, you'll realize it's just the truth. in 2004, the Karma did all this stuff  other players did not. In 2010, it still does this stuff, and still does it well. At least, the ones that still work do!
 
Keep in mind here I don't call myself an audiophile. I own some decent AKG headphones (K44's) and some Shure E3 IEMs. I can't say I'm particularly in love with those. I used to use Sharp MD33 canal phones with it (basically they are Sharp's equivalent to Sony's EX71 canal phones, but I always liked the Sharps better until I broke them). If you want to know how powerful the headphone out is on the thing, I looked it up, it's: 55mW/ch @ 16 ohms. 30mW/ch @ 32 ohms. That's pretty powerful compared to other DAPs of its era, I think. And to think, I used to use minidisc players that were like 5 or 10 mW per channel. I can tell you that my AKG cans are 32 ohm, and the Karma drives them to a volume level that is painful! If I had to pick a set of headphones/earphones I own that sound the best with the Karma, it would probably be those Sharp MD33's, or the Yuin PK3 earbuds I recently picked up. These things are pretty mean. I guess you're not really an earbud guy though, are you?
 
Oh, um, you asked about amps. Right. I don't go crazy with amps, and i don't really know how to talk the way some of these guys on head-Fi do. All I can really say are things like "it sounds good," or maybe a few specific things like clarity or muddy bass, crisp highs, etc. I'm no expert, man. Just a guy who likes music and digs electronics too. :D I have not heard much about people using amps with their Karmas. I'm sure people do it. Some people have to if they've got some crazy high-impedance cans, right? The dock is probably ideal for that, but of course it isn't portable. Anyway, I can't say much about amps because like I said, I'm not really too hardcore about this stuff (and I don't own any phones with a higher impedance than 32 ohms, which is where amping starts to matter more, am I right?). I did pick up a Fiio E5 recently, which I guess is one of the cheapest amps, but it has a good rep around here. The other night, out of curiosity, I hooked it to my Karma (which was set to "fake line out" mode, i.e. EQ off, volume at 29). I cranked a little Smashing Pumpkins and listened with the PK3 earbuds... Suffice to say, I did not notice an overwhelming difference, but the Pumpkins definitely had a little more "balls." Sorry, I'm not the guy to talk to about amps, but if you are into amps, you might be able to get some good advice on this board, or maybe over at riovolution.org.
 
Well, I hope you found my ramblings useful in some way. now that I've written this long thing, I feel like I should post it on the forum so that someone else might find an answer to their question somewhere in there as well. Cheers!

 
 
Note: I am terribly sorry if anything I ever say comes off as a love letter to Rio. I do try hard not to sound like a Rio fanboy - now I realize I may even be protesting too much. Oh well. I loved Rio's players, especially the Karma, and will gush about them at length sometimes. However, I'm not a fool, and I realize the company is gone, the players are outdated in some ways, and there are lots of nice options these days. Still, I have to say: LONG LIVE THE RIO KARMA!
 
May 13, 2010 at 8:27 PM Post #12 of 16
I was in love with my Rio when I had it, the iPods never appealed to me back then and it was the only high capacity player I could find. Once I got it I realised what a gem it was, like you say it's so easy to operate. Curse you Rio for dying on us. Imagine if they were still making DAPs today. <3
 
May 13, 2010 at 8:53 PM Post #13 of 16
How about finding an old iRiver H140 and putting a 120GB hard drive in it and rockboxing it? Good sound, large capacity, FLAC support and gapless playback.
According to the forums on Misticriver the largest capacity hard drive in the H140 is the Toshiba MK1214GAH 120gb 1.8" with a zif/ide adapter.
 
May 14, 2010 at 11:31 AM Post #14 of 16
You can also put a high-capacity SSD in a Rockboxed iRiver iHP-140. Faster access time, no mechanical noise and less power consumption compared to an HDD. Then use a portable dac/amp like an iBasso D10 with an optical input.
 
May 14, 2010 at 11:37 AM Post #15 of 16


Quote:
You can also put a high-capacity SSD in a Rockboxed iRiver iHP-140. Faster access time, no mechanical noise and less power consumption compared to an HDD. Then use a portable dac/amp like an iBasso D10 with an optical input.


Even better! (except for your wallet...)
 

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