[bozebuttons]

Looks like we will have some gilmore v1s,v2s and emmeline hr2 as well as A Carlo modded sudgen at the NY meet.
Members will be able to compare them and post their impressions including Grinch.

 

[Zanth]

Oh....a modded Sugden too! Bozebuttons, your meet is going to rock.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Quote:

Originally posted by pigmode You needed more treble energy than that from a Sugden? This just bears out the fact loudly and clearly that many of us have sonic preferences 180 degrees from each other.

As I remember it, the Sugden had two major problems that showed up over time...an overly smooth treble and an overly weak bass, both of which I believe carlo's mods were meant to directly address. By default, the oversmooth treble could be overlooked. But when the cannons on the 1812 SACD sound like marbles being dropped into an ocean by a 5 year old, you know something's not quite right.

 

[Kieran Comito]

Quote:

Originally posted by pigmode You needed more treble energy than that from a Sugden? This just bears out the fact loudly and clearly that many of us have sonic preferences 180 degrees from each other.

Thats right. Keep in mind this was with the R 10s. The Sugden gave plenty of treble energy to the Grado SR 225s, A 1000s and the HD 600s. For some reason, the R 10s were not responding to this amp. I needed an amp for these phones only, and so far, the HR-2 is the best I have heard. Plus consider price. Both amps are the same price, but look at the build. The caseing on the Sudgen has to cost a lot of money. That can't leave a lot left for the guts. The Emmeline, to me is attractive, but not as attractive as the Sudgen. There is not as much money in the caseing of the Emmeline, which tells me there is more invested in the guts. Plus, the bottom line for me is the sound. To my ears the Emmeline really is better. I knew it after 5 minutes. That is why I dropped the money to get it even though I owned the Sudgen.

 

[Nik]

I know this "problem"... I had ten amps for this cans... and I'm not arrived yet. In these ten amps there was EAR HP-4, Sugden, Headroom, Grado, Manley, custom...

I'll tell you when my last amp will be ready!

Just to say that amp for R10 is not easy problem...

Nicola

 

[john_jcb]

Quote:

Originally posted by dd3mon Well, if you "simple is best" is your argument, then the Gilmore wins hands down. I'm sure the Gilmore discrete design is far less complex than the internal circuitry of the average opamp. Who has compared the Gilmore v2 to Emmeline? It would be an interesting comparison. -dd3mon

Just wondering doesn't the Gilmore have an op-amp as the gain stage. For my edification can someone explain exactly what is meant when the word discrete is used. I look at the Gilmore parts list and see an op amp and transistors so I would like to know what qualifies as discrete and what does not.

 

[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally posted by john_jcb Just wondering doesn't the Gilmore have an op-amp as the gain stage. For my edification can someone explain exactly what is meant when the word discrete is used. I look at the Gilmore parts list and see an op amp and transistors so I would like to know what qualifies as discrete and what does not.

John...

The discrete design when implemented in an audio device
means the designer wants to choose his own inputs devices,
transistors of choice) with certain caps or resistors. Which means no op-amps. Now a day very few companies do some thing like that. Even the best CD players use the op-amps in
thier analog stages as output. It is not practical to invent the wheel when some one else had done it. there is nothing wrong
with using op-amps. as they are less noisy, all values are laser trimmed, & they take very limited space & that means shorter wires & less noise. Knowing that there are many op-amps availabel to choose from that makes it even much more flavorfull
to design with op-amps in mind. The next stage would be the driver stage, & that depends on what to drive as load & of
what kind of impedances. Most of the current drivers in designes are a push/pull type. which are also used in many tube designes.
Cheers
Ray Samuels

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl From who?

i purposefully did not state any names, but i have conferred with a head-fier who has heard both in extended auditions and the basics of it were the sugden walked all over it. another person who heard the hr-2 gave me a couple first impressions, but didn't spend much time with it and those weren't so great either. these are people who's opinions i trust quite a bit and so the hr-2 just isn't on my audition list. i'll listen to it at the meet if i get a chance though. if they'd like to speak up with any comments on the amp, they can, it's their call.

ray samuels: i apologize and please forgive me for speaking too soon. i won't give any more comments on the amp until i hear it.

i agree with vert's comments on the sugden, but these two factors (slightly glossy treble and somewhat light bass) never really bothered me until i listened to the amp with grado hp-1's and that's when i realized i had to sell it and move on. the amp isn't very agressive, but the overall smooth sound really made me happy for almost a year. to this day i think it is my favorite amp for watching movies with hd600/cardas.


[edit]: fixed the [/b] code

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray Samuels The discrete design when implemented in an audio device means the designer wants to choose his own inputs devices, transistors of choice) with certain caps or resistors. Which means no op-amps. Now a day very few companies do some thing like that. Even the best CD players use the op-amps in thier analog stages as output. It is not practical to invent the wheel when some one else had done it. there is nothing wrong with using op-amps. as they are less noisy, all values are laser trimmed, & they take very limited space & that means shorter wires & less noise. Knowing that there are many op-amps availabel to choose from that makes it even much more flavorfull to design with op-amps in mind. The next stage would be the driver stage, & that depends on what to drive as load & of what kind of impedances. Most of the current drivers in designes are a push/pull type. which are also used in many tube designes.

i would check out this thread, specifically zzz's post as to why discrete components can be better than an opamp-based design: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=21445


in all the amps i have heard, i am pretty sure i don't think i'd ever buy another opamp-based headphone amplifier (except maybe the prehead). this is of course 100% my own opinion and i could care less what other people spend their money on. i just find that tubes and discrete components give superior sound (for me).

 

[Kieran Comito]

Quote:

Originally posted by grinch [/i i purposefully did not state any names, but i have conferred with a head-fier who has heard both in extended auditions and the basics of it were the sugden walked all over it. another person who heard the hr-2 gave me a couple first impressions, but didn't spend much time with it and those weren't so great either. these are people who's opinions i trust quite a bit and so the hr-2 just isn't on my audition list. i'll listen to it at the meet if i get a chance though. if they'd like to speak up with any comments on the amp, they can, it's their call. ray samuels: i apologize and please forgive me for speaking too soon. i won't give any more comments on the amp until i hear it. i agree with vert's comments on the sugden, but these two factors (slightly glossy treble and somewhat light bass) never really bothered me until i listened to the amp with grado hp-1's and that's when i realized i had to sell it and move on. the amp isn't very agressive, but the overall smooth sound really made me happy for almost a year. to this day i think it is my favorite amp for watching movies with hd600/cardas. [edit]: fixed the code [/B]

Did the headfier hear it at a meet? As far as I know, only 3 headfiers own the HR-2 at this point. Do you know which headphones the headfier was using?

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kieran Comito Did the headfier hear it at a meet? As far as I know, only 3 headfiers own the HR-2 at this point. Do you know which headphones the headfier was using?

i said "extended audition" not "five minutes with it in a crowded noisy room" and these headfiers obviously wouldn't own the amp when they didn't like what they heard.

i am not entirely sure of what headphones were used, but i neglect to see why this would have anything to do with it. i'm talking about the amp's performance and signature, not some voodoo synergy magic that happens when you pair it with r10's.

 

[Tuberoller]

Grinch,

Jesus man.Why don't you actually listen to the amp before you make these assumption based claims.You complain about "five minutes in a crowded,noisey room" but that's all you're gonna get with the HR2.At least the people who have formed opinion based on those brief sessions have actually heard it,you have'nt.

This is a prime example of my biggest gripe against so-called audio experts,they make claims about stuff they have never heard.I owned a Headmaster as did Kieran.Head-fi member Angel_teres still owns a Headmaster.The point is, our opinions are based on extensive auditions not third party info.I say trust your own ears.This is the purpoes of the meets.Please better inform yourself.I got no respect for audio assumption it is based on ignorance and need to be heard.

 

[john_jcb]

I personally would question any review of these two amps where the person says that "it walked all over it". I have listened to quite a few higher end amps (both tube and solid state) and I think it is more accurate to say that there are differences in the sound especially with certain headphone pairings but I have not heard one amp that blows the others out of the water. It boils down to what you hear and what you prefer. Broad statements without detail or substance are just inflammatory and in my mind serve no purpose. Without knowing the person who made these comments and their possible motivations or biases it is difficult for me to lend any credence to these comments.

I think if one does a search and reads the comments relative to the Emmeline HR-2 you will see a definite pattern, high quality components and assembly coupled with extremely detailed and accurate sound reproduction. I have not read any reviews that would suggest that the HR-2 is anything but an exceptional amp. If their is a source/amp/headphone combination out there that does not sound good I would like to read about it as I am sure others would.

 

[carlo]

The person grinch is talking about is me, he asked me privately what I thought and I told him. I do happen to think that the AD797 Emmeline coupled with Sennheiser HD600s, HD580s (both Cardas'd) and the Grado SR225 is a significant step behind the Sugden Headmaster (with those headphones, and I am talking stock) basically for the same reasons others like the AD797/HR-2 so much. "Tube-like Solid State" is a misnomer to me, the correct words are "colored Solid State that adds too much bloom and mimicks what it can not." When opamps and transistors try to sound like valves I get annoyed by the lack of body and decay of a note and feel left with mushiness and a soundstage that sounds ill placed.

I personally prefer both the AD825 and OPA627 because it brings out what the Emmeline does best: groove in bass lines and a quick presentation. The AD797 in contrast sounds bogged down to me and is flavoring... the reason I think the Headmaster clearly beats the HR-2 and that opamp is because the Sugden doesn't try to sound like anything. Headmaster smoothes out the sound and is lightweight to both extremes (lack of PS capacitance and those electrolytics in the output stage were the culprits based on my experimentations with it) but it omits instead of trying. AD797/HR-2 is trying too hard to my ears with the headphones above. After I installed (my own) AD825s and OPA627s I enjoyed the Emmeline much more and feel it comes closer to the quality of sound, if a different presentation, to the Headmaster. I still lean towards the Sugden with the headphones listed above because its pleasing and relaxed presentation does well to two headphones I don't rank among the best I've heard, but the Emmeline isn't steps behind when the opamps are changed.

With the RS-1 I prefer the OPA627/HR-2 to the Sugden because its fast, PRaT based, and the two compliment each other so well my mind wondered if Ray had used it as his reference. I have no clue if he did or not but that was a combination my foot tapped wildly with. In case anyone cares I do rank the RS-1 above the HD600 and SR225 because when it feels like riding the groove it does so very well, I have not heard the two headphones I'd give 9+/10 (Sony R-10 and Grado HP-1) with the Emmeline. From my time with the R-10 (EAR HP4, modified Melos SHA-1) it is a picky bitch and can sound dramatically different bass-wise dependent on the amp, that it can love an amp/op-amp that the Sennheisers and lower/mid end Grados do not isn't surprising to me.

I don't post extended comments about products I'm not reviewing for this site on this site because its how I do things, I prefer to wait until my review is up to go into detail. I'm doing it now because this specific instance warrants it, but decline to say any more because this conversation makes my head hurt.

Blayde,

At your price range you owe it to yourself to add the Gilmore Dynamic (I have only heard the v1, ALPS'd and DACt'd) and if you can find one a higher end Melos (Gold or higher). Both do very well in waking the Sennheisers up in terms of attack and dynamics, if you're set on your current headphones those are the two in your price range that do best with them (to my ears with my system with the stars in alignment and blah blah blah blah blah).

 

[antness]

John,

Yes there is an opamp in the Gilmore parts list however it is not in the audio signal. It is used as part of a servo loop to null any DC voltage on the output of the amplifier instead of the easy way of using an input/output capacitor. These capacitors, the good ones such as Auricaps, are extremely expensive and would probably add about $100 to the cost of the Gilmore if they were necessary.