Subwoofer-fi - who uses really world-class ($1K+) subs?
Feb 5, 2009 at 3:30 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 132

Skylab

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Even though I have speakers that are full-range, I have them placed in my room where they image the best, and this placement isn't good from a bass perspective. So I use a pair of corner-located servo-controlled subwoofers - A Velodyne FSR-1500, and a Martin Logan Descent. This does the trick nicely - I get sub-20hZ response, but the combination of the servo-control and the low crossover point keeps the subs from coloring the rest of the music.

Anyone else here into super subs?
 
Feb 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM Post #2 of 132
I guess a sub is nice, but probably I won't get one. I've used to not so impactful bass response and it feels somehow much more natural and relaxed. It could be that the earlier cans (HD650) were overpowering the bass too much but I'm really content with staxes' bass.

As for speakers, I may buy some nice high-endish like ML when I get lucky and perhaps they won't do even that good than the headphone-Staxes do. If not, a subwoofer might be on the list.
 
Feb 5, 2009 at 8:18 PM Post #3 of 132
FWIW, I have a Sunfire sub which I love. Not sure if it qualifies as high end but it was >$1k
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I mainly use my media room (in which this is installed) for movies and parties so the sub is welcome. If I used that setup for 2 channel audio I probably wouldn't use a sub, I think that it is too hard to get the bass/other mix correct and you are relying on cross-overs from different manufacturers as well as different case dynamics to make it all sound right.
 
Feb 5, 2009 at 8:43 PM Post #4 of 132
Sunfire subs are excellent, IMO. I still like to use my subs for 2-channel - but I does likes me bass
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Feb 5, 2009 at 8:57 PM Post #5 of 132
I am surprised at the lack of infinite baffle users in here.
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 4:32 AM Post #6 of 132
Wow, although I am not a bass head, I have to admit that proper deep bass is one of the greatest things in sound! I would love to own a high end sub woofer one of these days. But I am lost. How can a sub wolfer be incorporated with a stereo amp? Also if one is using a tube stereo speaker amp, can a sub wolfer be used without interfering with the tube sound?

My apologies for the newbie like questions.
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 5:30 AM Post #7 of 132
There is no substitution for a good properly tuned sub. I added a Linn Sizmik 12.45 to my two channel about 6 weeks ago and WOW. Granted, it's pricey but it's insane how much better music is. FYI my speakers are Sonus Faber Electa Ps (the older larger ones)
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 5:36 AM Post #8 of 132
I use a REL Stadium III with my system and can't live without it. And this may come as a shock, but I use the REL with my STAX headphone system, and on jazz or rock it makes a huge difference. You don't know what you're missing until you hear what you've missed. Tight, pounding (but not boomy) bass from ....a headphone system.

I plan to do a full review of how to add true bass to a headphone system .... as to me, there is nothing better then to hear the immediacy of the speed of Stax and REL working together. There is a reason REL is considered the audiophile sub by many. I'm even considering a smaller REL for my computer system ...but my family may nix that.
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 5:04 PM Post #9 of 132
Hi Rob,

I have a REL Storm (original) and like it a lot! I like the REL philosophy that the sub needs to assimilate into the overall system, so it can take the main amp output and take on the sound of the rest of the system. I'm very much NOT a bass head, but when bass is present in the music, I want to hear it accurately and well controlled. To me, good bass supports the overall sound but doesn't draw attention to itself, and the REL allows for this. Separately, on movies, esp w/ special effects, strong bass really helps convey the emotion of the action on screen.

I will also say that I think adjusting the sub settings and placement (inch by inch) can make a very big difference. I think the room makes a really huge difference in bass, too. Some day we'll have to carry my Krell amp and REL sub to your place; I'd LOVE to hear that! I'll start pumping iron and buy a good back support in preparation.
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Sorry, I'm drifting ...

Lornecherry, I'd be interested in hearing more about how you assimilate your REL sub when using Stax headphones. I'd like to try!
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 5:14 PM Post #10 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spareribs /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Wow, although I am not a bass head, I have to admit that proper deep bass is one of the greatest things in sound! I would love to own a high end sub woofer one of these days. But I am lost. How can a sub wolfer be incorporated with a stereo amp? Also if one is using a tube stereo speaker amp, can a sub wolfer be used without interfering with the tube sound?

My apologies for the newbie like questions.



My REL Storm has a connector that takes the amp's outputs and uses that as the sub amp's input. I think it's a Neutrik termination with bare wires on the other end which you can screw into the main amp or terminate however you wish, but don't quote me on that. From memory (which ain't so hot these days!) I think I have my main speaker wires terminated with spades and the sub wires terminated with bananas, so they can both fit into the standard 5-way posts on the back of the main amp. My REL sub can also take a low level RCA input, but I haven't used it that way.

I don't know if other subs work this way or not ...
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 5:26 PM Post #11 of 132
Hi John -

Yep, REL subs are awesome. Good stuff.
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 6:59 PM Post #12 of 132
I use a JL Audio Fathom F112 sub in my 2 channel speaker setup. It is very well controlled with music.
 
Feb 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM Post #14 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I use a JL Audio Fathom F112 sub in my 2 channel speaker setup. It is very well controlled with music.


Always wanted to hear one of those.
 
Feb 8, 2009 at 7:54 PM Post #15 of 132
I use subwoofers in two different audio systems in addition to my home theater. I find that with a little work, the contribution they make to the music is huge. But they do take some work to implement correctly.

One secret is to cross the sub over as low as you can. Even at 50hz, the sub will enrich the tone of instruments that play at far higher frequencies. You can do this with little effort other than buying the sub and a pair of interconnect splitters, driving the sub off the same interconnects as your main amp and using the sub as bass reinforcement only. This can work surprisingly well so long as you keep the crossover point low and the sub volume down (easy rule of thumb is to start the sub at very low volume and turn it up until you can "hear" it, then turn it back down by 20-25% or so). You will get seamless or nearly seamless integration and richer, but unobtrusive bass.

Using a good crossover (not the one on your sub!) will make a bigger difference and allow you to use the sub to help out more frequency limited speakers.

For example, on the system I am listening to right now (admittedly an advanced implementation) I have a McIntosh computer with external hard drive playing iTunes through a Wavelength Audio Cosecant V3 DAC playing through a Copland DRC-205 digital room correction device (24 bit A-D-A conversion) through an Audio Research LS-17 preamp through a Bryston 10B crossover set to 140Hz and 6db/octave (both high and low pass) to: a) a First Watt F3 amp to Lowther PM5A drivers in Medallion II cabinets; b) Hsu MBM-12 "midrange" subwoofer (24db/octave crossover set at the maximum frequency, 150 Hz (this sub rolls off physically at 24 db/octave at 50 Hz); and c) Hsu VTF-3 HO Turbo (24 db/octave crossover set at 50 Hz).

With the exception of high frequencies (which I haven't gotten around to playing with yet) this somewhat complicated system delivers sound that is incredibly detailed and nuanced, with great tone (cello's sound like real cello's) and a very relaxed (non-hi-fi) presentation.

Yes, depending on your room and complementary components, a sub can at first appear to be difficult to integrate seamlessly. In my experience, however, most of the folks who have integration problems are trying to play the sub too loud -- trying to turn their main system and main speakers and even their room into something they are not. A sub can't and won't cure all ills. If you approach it as the opportunity for a modest, incremental improvement, however, take the time to experiment with sub location, and keep the crossover point and volume down, I bet you will be pleased.

Of course, if you want to go whole hog, you can achieve really stunning results. In my home theatre I have an MBM-12 crossed over at 120 Hz on the high side, naturally rolling off at 50Hz, 24 db/octave on the low side, to an Epik Conquest set at 50Hz. With the latest version of Audyssey, this combo provides a very convincing foundation to hi-def movie sound while never drawing attention to itself. The Hsu MBM-12 is an amazing device which itself can be a little trick to set up unless you take the easy way out (as I have) by placing both the MBM-12 and the main subwoofer behind the listening area equidistant from the main listening seats. In this configuration both the MBM-12 and Conquest are seamless and completely non-localized.

By the way, one other key to good sub integration is to get the sub off the floor. On one of my systems (which uses the Velodyne HGS-18) I use an ASC sub-trap, a great but somewhat expensive solution. On the Lowther system I am playing with and my home theatre I use Auralex Great Grammas, which work great at a far lower cost.

FWIW, I ignored deep bass as the province of head-thumpers for too many years. Now that I have figured out how to do it more or less right, I can't imagine living without it -- not because of low organ notes or authentic kick-drums, but rather because it gives all kinds of instruments that play in the 100-500 Hz range a richness -- and trueness -- of tone that was always missing before.

If you do it successfully, however, you will quickly figure out that generations of mixing engineers put deep bass on recordings that they didn't know about because although their microphones and recording equipment were capable of picking low frequencies up their studio monitors just couldn't reproduce it. Either that or they figured that none of their customers would be able to hear all of the foot thumps, passing trucks, moving chair legs and other sounds you will hear with your new sub correctly integrated into your system!

Regards, James
 

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