[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif you're reinterpreting your post, but that's fine.

Maybe I have difficulty expressing things on some days more than others, but since this is hardly a new topic in this thread or in many others, and as you've been around long enough to know my opinion(s) on the matter as posted over the years (as I do yours), I do not understand your sudden difficulty or need to pick a part one post I may have stated more poorly than I had intended. I think (though I obviously could be wrong), we share very similar views. What's up?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif and then, you can really only comment on how it sounds to you and with the other components in your rig.

THAT is also very, very true. And I wish more people understood that.

The only thing that is useful about reviews (formal or informal) is at least over time you can get an idea about what a given reviewer's sonic proclivities are, or if enough people share the same basic view on something, then at least some likelihoods can be hypothesized. But even this is only a very thin approximation for what someone will actually experience for themselves.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif But there is a faction here on head-fi that believes you can comment on sound quality based on looking at the internals - and this I find disturbing.

As do I.

I've often said that, frankly, I don't care to know (other than something that might relate to reliability) what's inside. It's how it sounds that matters. In so far as I'm concerned, an amp could contain eye of newt and ear of toad, and so long as they were kept in a state where these components would not break down prematurely (or smell...that would be bad) I'd be OK with it so long as the amp sounded good. That's all that ought to matter.

There's one particular ass clown who's been loudly running down various manufacturers of headphones and amps and such lately. Predictably, he's barely heard anything he sees fit to comment oh so outrageously upon. He's particularly fond of relative value of audio equipment (I saw him question a reviewer about the relative value of an amp he'd not heard, comparing it other amps that he'd also not heard).

This is the WORST kind of worthless posting. In fact, it's not even worthless...it's less than worthless. It causes others who can't see it in context to fall into line with the poster, and spreads misinformation. It causes others to roll their eyes and shake their heads. I suppose it causes others still to leave the site altogether out of sheer frustration at getting a relevant opinion.

As a moderator I'm tempted to start deleting posts like this whenever I see them. But then someone would accuse me of censorship, and a whole other ****-storm would begin.

It would be really nice if this kind of stuff didn't go on.

 

[jsaliga]

Jez...I am reluctant to recommend stuff that I have tried! Part of me always worries that the person I am making the recommendation to will not hear things the same way I do. I have no problem with recommending vendors I have had a good personal experience with. So if I was asked about Ray Samuels Audio or Woo Audio as a company I could recommend both, because I have purchased one amp from Ray and three from Jack. I was pleased with their customer service and the quality of their products.

Headphones have always been a though call for me. I am probably the world's worst reviewer for starters. I can tell people what I like, and usually why I like it. But I have run into too many instances where my experience has not been consistent with conventional wisdom.

For example, I recently loaned another head-fier my Audio Technica ATH-W5000s so he could audition them with his amp. No, I'm not running a covert headphone loaner program so don't ask.

I have known this member for a while and decided I could trust sending my phones to him. So I offered to do so since he said he was thinking about buying a pair and asked for my opinion. After he had them for about a week I think he was a little reluctant to share his impressions out of a concern that I might be offended by them. He has the same headphone amp that I do, a Woo Audio 2. He hated the W5000s!

Go figure. The point is that we hear things a little differently sometimes, and I am not that confident that another person will hear things the way I do. So I try to confine my comments to discussing my personal listening experience with a given headphone, or amp, source, or whatever.

--Jerome

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... proclivities ...

Rob, thanks to you I know a new word! Although I am thankfull please refrain from using such words, my dictionary is in storage and a pain to go looking for it.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif But NO ONE, no matter what there level of expertise on the subject, can look at how an product is built and say "this is how it will sound". There have been people on head-fi lately trying to do just that, and I think it is a very bad idea to accept that this is even possible, let alone desirable. One can *only* determine how a audio product will sound by listening to it.

I disagree. Sound isn't magic, it's physics. If you understand said physics, you will be able to make general comments on how certain designs will sound. If you crack down on these kinds of comments you will start to foster the idea that design has nothing to do with ultimate sound quality.

Not encouraging criticism based on design is a lot more detrimental to the forum than discouraging impressions without experience. We have to be critical of what is sold to us, and it is even more important now in the wake of the Singlepower fiasco and various other MOTs generally cashing in on the goodwill, and if I may say so, ignorance of the community.

But it is a completely different story altogether to pretend that you have the technical knowledge and rely on other people not being knowledgeable enough to shoot you down. That sort of thing is fronting, same as recommending gear without listening, except that it is even more dangerous since it has an air of validity that needs some technical knowledge on part of the reader to dispel. So if this is what you and Elrod-tom meant, then I agree. And, if I may say so, there have been some awfully busy and visible threads lately that have done just that, and should have been deleted.

This is a tricky topic since only a few people are qualified to make sound quality comments based on design, and you have to have some knowledge to even understand who knows what they're talking about and who's full of it. We don't want to mistake the former for the latter - antagonizing people with technical skills is what the community really should try to avoid right now.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif But it is a completely different story altogether to pretend that you have the technical knowledge and rely on other people not being knowledgeable enough to shoot you down. That sort of thing is fronting, same as recommending gear without listening, except that it is even more dangerous since it has an air of validity that needs some technical knowledge on part of the reader to dispel. So if this is what you and Elrod-tom meant, then I agree. And, if I may say so, there have been some awfully busy and visible threads lately that have done just that, and should have been deleted. This is a tricky topic since only a few people are qualified to make sound quality comments based on design, and you have to have some knowledge to even understand who knows what they're talking about and who's full of it. We don't want to mistake the former for the latter - antagonizing people with technical skills is what the community really should try to avoid right now.

And therein lies the difficulty. Who is to be the judge of who is qualified? It doesn't work. It is far better to refrain from judging the sonics of something based on what can be gleaned from specs and a glance at a picture of the bottom of the circuit board.

If the kind of person you are talking about has real knowledge, they would know that they could not possibly tell anything even about the *design* of the product, much less the sound, unless they could take the whole thing apart themselves are really see EVERYTHING. This CANNOT be done from pics and specs. And if one gets to possess the thing long enough to dissect it, why not give it a listen first?

 

[M3NTAL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not if you read them properly. The first statement is a commentary on the recommendation of equipment by those inexperienced with said equipment. It relates to positive and negative opinions and, broadly, to subjective assertions. The second statement concerns the posting of technical points which can be established by examination of available factual information given the proviso that the comments are founded not in that fact but also in a capable understanding of that fact. It relates, broadly, to objective assertions. The second point ends with the clause that a clarification of ones own personal knowledge and expertise is a good idea in cases where there may be any doubt. I think this was done in order to avoid a layman shout-down such as the one you hesitate toward.

I concur. Technical facts based on specifications can help build a foundation on a review of an item.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe I have difficulty expressing things on some days more than others, but since this is hardly a new topic in this thread or in many others, and as you've been around long enough to know my opinion(s) on the matter as posted over the years (as I do yours), I do not understand your sudden difficulty or need to pick a part one post I may have stated more poorly than I had intended. I think (though I obviously could be wrong), we share very similar views. What's up?

i have no difficulty in understanding, but you want it both ways and i don't think that is possible. you say you are firmly in the camp of people who believe that you can only know how a piece of equipment (let's say an amp) sounds (whether good or bad) by listening to it. but then you also say that it is okay for people to make comments, both positive and negative, about an amp based purely on pictures and specs. now we both know that when people do this (look at specs and pics), the main purpose is not to determine if the layout of parts is nice or the soldering is good. they are looking at the amp with a view to make a conclusion or judgment about its sound quality.

you may disagree, but that is my point.

 

[shirtaspants]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not encouraging criticism based on design is a lot more detrimental to the forum than discouraging impressions without experience. We have to be critical of what is sold to us, and it is even more important now in the wake of the Singlepower fiasco and various other MOTs generally cashing in on the goodwill, and if I may say so, ignorance of the community.

Quoted for agreement.

Maybe it's a tangent, but lost in all this talk about the basis of judging gear is the actual judgments and reviews people make here. It seems difficult to find thoughtful criticism of gear sometimes. Everyone loves to quote the "hear differently" thing, which is true to some extent, but its become an excuse for every piece of gear to avoid criticism, which feeds into catscratch's quote above. On top of that, the appreciation threads kind of weird me out- it's not the idea of a central thread per item, but the term "appreciation" when used so liberally is a;slkdjfas;lkd.

I don't want Head-fi to be a bashfest, but with all of the product offerings out there some are bound to be worse than others. There's a balance somewhere in here.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirtaspants /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone loves to quote the "hear differently" thing, which is true to some extent, but its become an excuse for every piece of gear to avoid criticism.

Care to explain in detail how that might work? Because I don't see it. Member A really likes a headphone and has 5 very positive things to say about it along with a couple of minor quibbles. Member B buys the same cans, listens to them, hates them, and posts to that effect. How does "hearing differently" factor into avoiding critcism? Someone might try to use "hearing differently" to explain away member B's criticism...but the criticism itself remains. Sometimes, though not always, it explains perfectly why people disagree on the sound of a given headphone. It could be many other things as well, such as member A has an amp that is an ideal match to the phones and member B has one that is not. In the above example "hearing differently" doesn't suddenly mean that member B now loves the phones. So it doesn't really change his opinion.

I don't get where you're coming from.

--Jerome

 

[shirtaspants]

Over time, its felt like Headfiers (no one in particular, just collectively) use that excuse reflexively to invalidate any criticism, and on the whole gives the impression that everything's good, nothing can be wrong. I think its really important to have a balanced view of any piece of gear, even your favorite, and recognize the shortcomings in everything. That's the only way we'll see progress, or at the very least, maintain the quality of what is available. It all feeds back into catscratch's quote.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif J The point is that we hear things a little differently sometimes, and I am not that confident that another person will hear things the way I do. So I try to confine my comments to discussing my personal listening experience with a given headphone, or amp, source, or whatever. --Jerome

That's all anyone can do, but it's the collective experience, if real and not feigned, of members that makes this a strong forum. I don't hear the same way as other members, and even if I agree with their impressions, I often find my tastes and/or needs to be different. I remember your thread on the lookout for new headphones for jazz. I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on various headphones, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who found your well-formed opinions valuable, whether I would choose the same as you or not. It's the b.s. posts, like elrod-tom mentioned, that degrade this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3NTAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I concur. Technical facts based on specifications can help build a foundation on a review of an item.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have no difficulty in understanding, but you want it both ways and i don't think that is possible.

No.

Quote:

you say you are firmly in the camp of people who believe that you can only know how a piece of equipment (let's say an amp) sounds (whether good or bad) by listening to it. but then you also say that it is okay for people to make comments, both positive and negative, about an amp based purely on pictures and specs.

Here's my original quote, which you only quoted partially:

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do believe some things about sound quality can be gleaned from looking at a build if you have a lot of experience in that area, but in general, I'm firmly in the camp that says you can't know how something sounds until you've actually heard it, and then, you can really only comment on how it sounds to you and with the other components in your rig.

I think some experienced members can post quite about accurately how an amp might do with different headphones, etc. by looking at design, parts, build quality, etc. as well as pointing out design or build pros and cons and how they may affect sound. I think that's valuable information, but it in no way can decide completely how an amp actually sounds. You have to listen to it to determine that. It's the only way, and even then, it's not just about the amp, but about the entire system, and also, as I and others have already said, it's your opinion only, which is also informed by taste, experience and sometimes even mood There is nothing contradictory in those ideas.

Quote:

now we both know that when people do this (look at specs and pics), the main purpose is not to determine if the layout of parts is nice or the soldering is good. they are looking at the amp with a view to make a conclusion or judgment about its sound quality. you may disagree, but that is my point.

I do disagree. You may be talking about some people, but certainly not all.

 

[immtbiker]

Not usually a moderator moment, but in this case:

 

[mrarroyo]

I can tell how a piece of gear will sound after reading the email confirming the gear has been shipped. How about that!