[MiChael.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is very true. It's also true that the placebo effect is strong beyond what many people believe. There's one very simple way to prove the differences that you hear: double-blind listening sessions, where you consistently identify the differences correctly. Without doing this, there's no real way to rule out placebo.

If you do double blind test with output levels matched within like 0.5db or less, I'd say it would be VERY hard to tell differences with most sources. Maybe like flat frequency response and over 90db SNR would mean already it would be hard to ABX it.
Anyway blind tests are absolutely, if someone can "guess" over 60% right of let's say 20-30 rouds, then it mean something.

Anyway double blind tests only show there is difference, not which one is better. On the other hand it doesn't matter a damn thing which one is better, cause it's subjective personal preference. Does it matter what the majority think, hell no.. it's personal.

The problem with tests is still that if someone is able to test some small sample succesfully, how big the difference is for day-to-day listening. Can anyone actually hear it.

Anyway listening fatique is almost impossible to blind test.

 

[rumatt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiChael. /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway listening fatique is almost impossible to blind test.

Nah, it's easy. It just takes a long time.

Every day that you listen to music, you have your SO flip a coin to determine which DAC is used that day, and they hook it up without telling you which. At the end of the session, you write down whether your not you felt any fatigue.

At the end of the month, you pair up your impressions with the DAC that was playing and see if there there is any correlation with which DAC was playing.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I certainly appreciate your point of view on pretty much everything Jon but I won't get into it here as it'll surely derail the thread.

On second thought, agreed. I edited out most of my post above. I think I've read way too many double-blind placebo-controlled trial articles for my own good

 

[granodemostasa]

i dont' think it's that hard to guess between different sources. once i got an idea of how the benchmark sounded, the ori zhoalu sounded and hte wavelenght brick, not even blind testing could get me to wrongly say which one was which. now... putting the exact differences in words.. that actually is difficult.... my point is that sources do make a significant difference.
the thing about it is that i dont' even believe tests like Iron Dreamers' becuase we all pay attention to different things when listening..... when asked to describe the brick, i came up with a totally different point about it than Dada... i paid more attention to soundstage and frequency response, while he paid attention to frequency breath and portrayal.

 

[MiChael.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by granodemostasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif i dont' think it's that hard to guess between different sources. once i got an idea of how the benchmark sounded, the ori zhoalu sounded and hte wavelenght brick, not even blind testing could get me to wrongly say which one was which. now... putting the exact differences in words.. that actually is difficult.... my point is that sources do make a significant difference. the thing about it is that i dont' even believe tests like Iron Dreamers' becuase we all pay attention to different things when listening..... when asked to describe the brick, i came up with a totally different point about it than Dada... i paid more attention to soundstage and frequency response, while he paid attention to frequency breath and portrayal.

Oh well, that's just part of the placebo that you clearly can hear the difference.
Nah, I'm not claiming it's the placebo, but it can happen. There are some exsamples of people who thought the difference is like earth and space, but they weren't able to distinguish it blind. Not to say it wouldn't mean she/he hears the difference, blind tests are always stressing especially for unsure people.

It doesn't matter though, cause usually when you do blind tests and fail it have effect for short time. Hearing memory is very short, accurate hearing memory is shorter than one second, but you keep things in mind that there was difference. After couple days you start to believe again there is difference and be happy or not happy.
At least that have happened to me and it must be the effect of imagination, I don't find that any bad. Though if no-one can actually blind test is succesfully, then what's real.. stress, if you can't mosh or relax with the sound as usual.

Anyway DA100 is superior cause it's the best bang for buck (I guess) and it's beautiful black (no I wouldn't be able to see the looks in blind test!

).

 

[LeonvB]

Quote:

How do you prove this?

Frankly, I don't have to prove ANYTHING. I was asked by a member of this forum to post my impressions, for the good of the community. But to be honest I had my doubts about the usefullness of posting about ANY information regarding sound signatures here. How right I was.

I've noticed this behaviour before: if you post information here that somehow goes against the "general" consensus, instead of a good discussion on the contents of the topic you get fed up with:
a. unbased disbelief
b. being ridiculed
c. pseudo-psycho babble to prove otherwise
d. pseudo-techno babble to prove otherwise
e. all of above
Take your pick. And you know what? Most of the people that participate haven't heard ANY of the units, let alone ALL of them. But still they claim to know what's happening. Funny isn't it?

To wrap things up: I'll answer a few legitimate questions that remain, and as far as I am concerned, this is the last I'll do here. So no silk gloves anymore:
Quote:

Anyway DA100 is superior cause it's the best bang for buck (I guess) and it's beautiful black

Depends on your point of view. The differences to me were obvious, much more improvement than changing a decent 7 euro interlink for a much better 200 euro one.
If you think a 200 euro interlink or powercord (LOL) is worth the money, you should at least also consider spending that much more on your source. The difference can be bigger than you think. But also note my previous remarks: test it yourself, as you may or may not like what you find.
Also: the 220MKII is available in black. It's an option. Just takes a few weeks to manufacture. Ask for it with your reseller and you'll get it. How hard can it be?
Quote:

would lead to a slightly worse performance in a system with highly unstable AC lines

Unfortunately, the Netherlands has one of the best powergrids in the world. It isn't the US. But to be absolutely certain AC variations couldn't mess things up we used power conditioning during the test. And yes, that too was the same for all tests.
I must say I'm not a firm believer in power conditioning, at least not for equipment that has enough buffering in it's power section. So at home the power amplifier is connected directly to the mains, and the units with less buffering are fed trough a simple but effective surge protector.
Quote:

But not always the most expensive model of same manufacturer is the "best", all products are anyway some kind of "point of views".

Certainly, and I've already stated that. Again, if you have a system that's "less weak" in the bass department and/or less resolving, you'll likely not notice the differences. The orginal DA220 however will then be a much better choice. As the difference with the DA100 has shrunken to around 200 euro, the DA220 is a much better overall choice: full size, balanced, more detail (if you're able to hear it), etc. A much better value in the long run, esp. if you consider to expand your system to balanced, or consider re-sale value (the former top-model is always more in demand than the former entry-level model).
Quote:

Being with tighter budget means imho to be more critical of what is reasonable to pay for differences and for how big difference per dollar/euro

Exactly. That's why I still use 7 euro interlinks. The 200 euro ones do offer an improvement, but with my system not enough to justify it. Also, you may notice my rack is a 30 euro homemade one instead of a bought 400$ one. Combined with the 1200 euro + 5 weeks of work for the speakers instead of the 4300+ euro costing PMC OB1 ones I selected earlier made funds available for the Stello DA220 and the 1Tb RAID 5 HW array I have now. Granted, this is a much bigger budget than most, but it's still limited. Given the funds available, I think I've maximized the performance & convenience I can get.

Don't agree? Not my problem: I'm out of here.

 

[Patu]

Why are you getting so upset?

I do appreciate your impressions of these products. There are not many threads I follow in Head-Fi these days but this is one of them. So thanks for that.

Isn't it obvious that there might be people wondering about you finding clear differences between products that share almost exactly the same design? Knowing this, you might also understand why some people find it easier to believe that the differences are very subtle or non-existent. I would imagine that in this case the difference comes when you use DA220 in balanced mode vs. DA100 single ended mode. I don't know because I still haven't heard DA220, just my guess.

 

[akwok]

Just because someone disagrees with you (oh my, on a discussion forum of all places?) doesn't mean you have to get all huffy puffy.

 

[rumatt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by patu Why are you getting so upset?

+1

Don't take it personally. I think that like 75% of what people post is placebo effect.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeonvB /img/forum/go_quote.gif One more anecdote about being able to listen: Arian had a HP100 for me to test too, but within the minute I told him it was malfunctioning. To me it had very noticable background noise. With a big grin he revealed the unit had a wrong transformer, but none of the hunderds of people who listened to it during the meets he had the weeks before were able to notice something was wrong (!).

Can it also be the case with DA100 you auditioned?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Anyway DA100 is superior cause it's the best bang for buck (I guess) and it's beautiful black

What kind of bull is this?

I always thought that something was superior if it sounded much better. In this case the da 220 mark 2 is sounding better and therefor superior to the da100! The da 100 can be seen as a bigger bang for the buck though, since you get for less money close performance to the da 220, but NOT equal!

Leonvb,

try my even more expensive interlinks or powercables and you'll hear why people pay this cash for better cables. Comparing cables in the 200 dollars section is not geting you anywhere...comparing to reference series of cable will prove you there is significant difference in cables!

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kind of bull is this? I always thought that something was superior if it sounded much better. In this case the da 220 mark 2 is sounding better and therefor superior to the da100! The da 100 can be seen as a bigger bang for the buck though, since you get for less money close performance to the da 220, but NOT equal!

It comes down not to the difference in performance, as schematic, components used, and assembly quality are identical, but rather extra features provided.
The car with onboard GPS and sunroof does not automatically have a better performance than the other one with the same engine.
Of course dealers, being living off commission, must make everything possible to make the most expensive products in the line look the best. That just hard fact of their life, happens everywhere, all the time.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT /img/forum/go_quote.gif It comes down not to the difference in performance, as schematic, components used, and assembly quality are identical, but rather extra features provided. The car with onboard GPS and sunroof does not automatically have a better performance than the other one with the same engine. Of course dealers, being living off commission, must make everything possible to make the most expensive products in the line look the best. That just hard fact of their life, happens everywhere, all the time.

To my knowledge the da220 uses 2 da 100's in it's design to be totally balanced! hence more expensive and beter performance...the da220 mark 2 has some more tweaks to sound better then the da100! @ transformers to seperately feed the electronics, lacks in da100 etc. The more independantly transformer you use, the better it will sound, it get's more stable and the sound profits from this; pure black background with rock solid sound. The audionote dac 5 has even 6! indepent transformers in it's design, costing 30 grant or something. it's not only an extra option that makes the da220 better!

Cheaper is not superieur! It only makes you hungry to mod the bad cheap components for better ones and you turn out not to be that cheap as it was before!

So, you might ,to make cheap things sound good or better, pay even more or the same then allready good stuff reasonably priced.

I have no doubt the da 100 is a fantastic dac but the fact is that the da220 mark 2 is simply better! And you have to pay for it!

 

[MiChael.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeonvB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends on your point of view. The differences to me were obvious, much more improvement than changing a decent 7 euro interlink for a much better 200 euro one. If you think a 200 euro interlink or powercord (LOL) is worth the money, you should at least also consider spending that much more on your source. The difference can be bigger than you think. But also note my previous remarks: test it yourself, as you may or may not like what you find. Also: the 220MKII is available in black. It's an option. Just takes a few weeks to manufacture. Ask for it with your reseller and you'll get it. How hard can it be?

Hey dude chill out, I got no problem with color and cables

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kind of bull is this? I always thought that something was superior if it sounded much better. In this case the da 220 mark 2 is sounding better and therefor superior to the da100! The da 100 can be seen as a bigger bang for the buck though, since you get for less money close performance to the da 220, but NOT equal!

What ever mate... I was joking about the color, but I do actually hate the mass-market silver.. nothing to do with quality. Black or red Porsche ? It doesn't make it any faster of more economical, but the looks. I'd choose anyway silver if it sounded better, would be decent price and there wouldn't be black or if the silver looks better for that unit.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiChael. /img/forum/go_quote.gif LeonvB and Jon L, I have to agree with both of you. But I feel people are usually exaggerating the differences, but sure if the money ain't thing then only the best will do it or "good enough". Being with tighter budget means imho to be more critical of what is reasonable to pay for differences and for how big difference per dollar/euro . But not always the most expensive model of same manufacturer is the "best", all products are anyway some kind of "point of views".

I think every man/woman knows that the higher you go up the scale pricewise, the less you get in return soundwise! if you want the best, you gotta pay for it. it's that simple. Reading reviews is a good thing to determing wich components are worth the money and wich are not. Simply spending lots of money and putting a system together doesn't make it a top system. Also with expensive components tweaking and matching is needed to max it out!