[MuppetFace]

 
Quote:

I will say this though. I have never cheated in the sense that I have taken someone else's ideas and called them my own. I have, a few times written completely made up facts and cited them to someone else (undergrad english writing class). I'm admittedly I horrible writer. When I graduated finally I had to hire a professional writer to help me organize my thoughts. I am not saying this person wrote my dissertation, I did the research, wrote up a working draft and then he and I would sit together and he would show me where my mistakes and problem area's were and helped me keep track of the end goal of the entire thing. In the process he taught me more about how to write academic papers than any professor or class ever could. I think this is the real issue. It's not the student inability or apathy. They were never properly taught how to write papers, or weren't told how important this would be.

What you describe there isn't cheating, but hiring a private tutor from the sound of it. That's perfectly a-okay. In fact it shows your taking initiative about your lack of writing skills. On the campus where I teach, there's a similar service offered to students free of charge. Any student can go see a fellow student-tutor at any time during that tutor's posted work hours.
 
Out of curiosity, did you ever at any point talk to your professors about your writing problems? I'm not trying to imply you were being lazy. Obviously if you hired a private tutor you weren't lazy. Rather, some students just never think to talk to the professor much less ask him or her for help.

 

[Xaborus]

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+1  
I have learned MUCH more over the internet, in my own studies of my interest. Than i have ever learned in school.
 
I have become an expert in hydroponics, aquaponics, bodybuilding, bodybuilding dietary nutrition, computer building (I'm using a computer i built at 14 years of age, as we speak), Water/Mathanol Injection (for turbocharger use on car engines), Soap making, and soon to be hi-fidelity music.
 
All in 2 years of studying on the internet.
 
Beat that, broken American education.

I'd be more careful about the use of the word "expert" in the future. Unless you've been involved in designing water/methanol injection systems for commercial applications, hydroponic farms for large scale production, or have published papers/obtained patents in those areas, it's rather unlikely that you're an expert in those fields. Merely learning enough for personal application does not qualify one as an expert in any field.
 
As for the American primary education system, you're missing the point. The system exists to impart essential language and mathematics skills, provide a basic education in a variety of fields, inculcate societal standards, and promote the value of hard work. While not a perfect system, well functioning schools do a reasonable job at fulfilling these requirements for the vast majority of students. The most proficient students tend to get the shaft as it's not cost effective to provide an alternate curriculum for a dozen students, but that's what universities and community colleges are there for. Many will let high school students take a reduced course load.

And may i ask you, how well is our system working out?
 
What is our education rank, compared to other countries?
 
Also: Check this chart out. You will finally realize how big of a failure our education system is.
 
 
Edit: While i may have used the word "expert", ill admit that I'm not actually an "expert". I didn't think people would get that worked up over a broad word.
Although, i do know a TON about hydroponics. I'm not talking about simple Ebb n Flow, DWC, or NFT systems here. I'm taking about the cutting edge in hydroponics. For legal purposes, of course

 

[MuppetFace]

 

It's certainly depressing to see what students aren't being taught in schools around the US. I don't think the point of what anyone has posted thus far is to somehow elevate a broken system and deny the very real problems inherent in it.
 
The point here is that your standard of measurement for comparing the success you feel you've achieved in supposedly mastering a handful of random subfields via the internet to the education received at an actual institution with a committed faculty is decidedly off-base. You're measuring a successful education by how many facts you've memorized.
 
More to the point, posting news articles about how the US education system is failing doesn't adequately refute these arguments.
 
Edit: Why wouldn't people react to your calling yourself an expert in numerous fields? Being an "expert" is a title that carries a very distinct connotation.
​

 

[odigg]

 
Quote:

Quote:

And may i ask you, how well is our system working out?

 
What is our education rank, compared to other countries?
 
Also: Check this chart out. You will finally realize how big of a failure our education system is.
 

I suspect that almost all people working in the field of education would agree that the US education system has major problems.  I don't think anybody here is saying that the system is anywhere close to ideal.  There are a LOT of people working on educational reform and have been doing so for a long time.
 
Those rankings are problematic.  You're using them to illustrate the weakness of the the US education system in comparison to other countries - some of those countries have a lot of people who are desperate to leave due to poor economic prospects or an unstable social/political system.
 
Do you understand the metric they used to measure those countries?  Do you understand what those rankings mean?  Can you tell me how those rankings relate to adult pay, quality of life, job productivity, creativity, problem solving, and all the other stuff that matters to people when they are out of school?
 
I'll give you an example of why this matters.  India is sometimes presented as an example of a country that scores high on these types of measures.  India also pumps out an incredible number of graduates with STEM degrees.  Yet, In India, there is the general complaint that 85+% of these graduates are unemployable in these fields.  What does a high score on that metric then mean?  

 

[alysony]

Quote:

 
Quote:

I will say this though. I have never cheated in the sense that I have taken someone else's ideas and called them my own. I have, a few times written completely made up facts and cited them to someone else (undergrad english writing class). I'm admittedly I horrible writer. When I graduated finally I had to hire a professional writer to help me organize my thoughts. I am not saying this person wrote my dissertation, I did the research, wrote up a working draft and then he and I would sit together and he would show me where my mistakes and problem area's were and helped me keep track of the end goal of the entire thing. In the process he taught me more about how to write academic papers than any professor or class ever could. I think this is the real issue. It's not the student inability or apathy. They were never properly taught how to write papers, or weren't told how important this would be.

What you describe there isn't cheating, but hiring a private tutor from the sound of it. That's perfectly a-okay. In fact it shows your taking initiative about your lack of writing skills. On the campus where I teach, there's a similar service offered to students free of charge. Any student can go see a fellow student-tutor at any time during that tutor's posted work hours.
 
Out of curiosity, did you ever at any point talk to your professors about your writing problems? I'm not trying to imply you were being lazy. Obviously if you hired a private tutor you weren't lazy. Rather, some students just never think to talk to the professor much less ask him or her for help.

My advisor? Yes. He told me to find someone to help me write cause it's not his problem. In undergrad my gen ed teachers were very big on getting 'the engineering kids' in and out as fast as possible.
 
I don't think I'm an expert. I think of myself as pretty smart in some fields, but by no means an expert.

 

[NapalmK]

Honestly, I've witnessed a lot more cheating in college than high school. Not to say it didn't happen in high school but it was very infrequent and really looked down upon. I went to a top 100 public school with some of the best teachers (and students) in the country. I'm truly thankful for the education I received as I ended up being a couple of years ahead of the curve when I entered college.
 
To qualify, in my school there were essentially four tiers of students which I feel gave me an interesting perspective. At the bottom were the below-average trouble makers. I'm not saying they were bad kids but they didn't have any motivation or value education in the least which set them up for failure. I was a volunteer TA and tutor for a couple of their math classes and it was clear that most of them had other priorities. Cheating here was just overwhelming which is sad because the teachers were incredibly helpful and genuinely caring.
 
The next level up was average students. They took all the regular classes and did alright in them for the most part. I didn't really have too much interaction with the majority of them but they were the typical high school crowd. Standard rules of cheating applied. I would say this is were the level of cheating in college is if not a bit worse.
 
Another level up was where I was in the above-average category. Here most everyone took 6 or so AP classes and worked diligently. There was some cheating but usually it was more of help than cheating. It was really a community type of learning environment. If someone didn't understand the homework/essay I had no problem handing my work to them because they wouldn't copy it. Rather they would attempt to understand the material and ask questions about problems they were having. "I was doing _______. Why did you use ____?" Cheating did occur but it was mainly a result of people who forgot to do their homework and those who took pity on them. Cheating on essays almost never occurred at least to my knowledge. Calculators weren't allowed on math tests so no programming calculators with answers there although there was the occasional stray eye.
 
The final level was where the prodigies resided. We don't have valedictorians and have a very good gifted program for this reason. These are the people that take the majority of available AP classes (all the AP courses listed except for Chinese and Latin) and are done with Calc III, Diff Eq, and Matrix (a college credited course) by their sophomore or junior year and go into thesis (a research program). At graduation there were 6 people with a perfect 4.6 GPA (not counting senior year) and 2 with perfect ACT scores. There was essentially no cheating with these people. I personally knew almost all of them and they were extremely anti-cheating.
 
I apologize for the long post. Hopefully, someone found it interesting or informative.

 

[Khanate]

Quote:

Quote:

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+1  
I have learned MUCH more over the internet, in my own studies of my interest. Than i have ever learned in school.
 
I have become an expert in hydroponics, aquaponics, bodybuilding, bodybuilding dietary nutrition, computer building (I'm using a computer i built at 14 years of age, as we speak), Water/Mathanol Injection (for turbocharger use on car engines), Soap making, and soon to be hi-fidelity music.
 
All in 2 years of studying on the internet.
 
Beat that, broken American education.

I'd be more careful about the use of the word "expert" in the future. Unless you've been involved in designing water/methanol injection systems for commercial applications, hydroponic farms for large scale production, or have published papers/obtained patents in those areas, it's rather unlikely that you're an expert in those fields. Merely learning enough for personal application does not qualify one as an expert in any field.
 
As for the American primary education system, you're missing the point. The system exists to impart essential language and mathematics skills, provide a basic education in a variety of fields, inculcate societal standards, and promote the value of hard work. While not a perfect system, well functioning schools do a reasonable job at fulfilling these requirements for the vast majority of students. The most proficient students tend to get the shaft as it's not cost effective to provide an alternate curriculum for a dozen students, but that's what universities and community colleges are there for. Many will let high school students take a reduced course load.

And may i ask you, how well is our system working out?
 
What is our education rank, compared to other countries?
 
Also: Check this chart out. You will finally realize how big of a failure our education system is.
 
 
Edit: While i may have used the word "expert", ill admit that I'm not actually an "expert". I didn't think people would get that worked up over a broad word.
Although, i do know a TON about hydroponics. I'm not talking about simple Ebb n Flow, DWC, or NFT systems here. I'm taking about the cutting edge in hydroponics. For legal purposes, of course

 
The USA system is admittedly flawed. But the rankings compare against the other extreme, countries who base themselves a bit too much on overstudying.
 
Myopia affects 80% of 18-year old Singaporeans due to their environment (staying inside to study). Many students in South Korea finish after-school school at 10pm with 15 hours of school a day and a partial day on Saturday. Plus homework.
 
There's a fine balance to achieve, but I don't think the Asian countries topping the list are better at hitting that balance than the USA.

 

[hembergler]

Quote:

x2
 
I kind of laugh when I hear my colleagues say that what they learn during their course is useless because there is a kit for everything today. you know that complaint of: I am studying this but will never use it". It is so UNTRUE.
Everything I learned at school has been useful to me or will be in the future.

 
x3
 
One of my pet peeves is hearing peers whine about have to learn stuff "they'll never need to know." Regardless of whether or not the material is of future, practical value, all education is going to work on one's critical thinking / problem solving, communication, work ethic and stuff that makes people good. My memory is no good, even for subjects I like, so most of the facts and figures of almost every class I've taken have been lost. One could easily say that I don't know very much and didn't learn very much from school, but committing those facts and figures to memory was never the objective of any of those courses. If I had never taken those classes I would never have been able to develop my writing, speaking, scientific reasoning, handling of stress and all the other great things that come with being a full-time learner (can you believe my only purpose in life right now is to learn? It's an amazing privilege).
 
Quote:

Quote:

And may i ask you, how well is our system working out?

 
What is our education rank, compared to other countries?
 
Also: Check this chart out. You will finally realize how big of a failure our education system is

 
Those links are irrelevant to the argument, and their validity / value is also questionable. School should give you the base knowledge of various disciplines, but its purpose isn't so you can go off and apply calculus or your AP Lit discussions to everything you do in life (and if one did that, that would be, in fact, annoying). You're seriously undervaluing your education and in some ways disrespecting the people who've dedicated their lives to teaching you and your peers by saying that a couple trips to the Internet is more worthwhile. Education isn't just an accumulation of facts, and it's important to recognize what it's really teaching you. That's something to keep in mind as you finish high school, and something to really keep in mind if/when you apply to college in two years as I imagine you will--probably aiming high.

 

[grape ape]

so any professors or instructors in here, how do you deal with it when you run across cheating in your class? I've been in this position a number of times and deal with it on an individual basis. Some times I report them to the academic dean and they're usually expelled if it do. If they're a student who has been applying themselves and all of a sudden cheated I usually just give them a zero on the exam/essay after a very stern lecture. I understand that doing such is unethical but have you found yourself in the same position?

 

[Xaborus]

Quote:

Quote:

x2
 
I kind of laugh when I hear my colleagues say that what they learn during their course is useless because there is a kit for everything today. you know that complaint of: I am studying this but will never use it". It is so UNTRUE.
Everything I learned at school has been useful to me or will be in the future.

 
x3
 
One of my pet peeves is hearing peers whine about have to learn stuff "they'll never need to know." Regardless of whether or not the material is of future, practical value, all education is going to work on one's critical thinking / problem solving, communication, work ethic and stuff that makes people good. My memory is no good, even for subjects I like, so most of the facts and figures of almost every class I've taken have been lost. One could easily say that I don't know very much and didn't learn very much from school, but committing those facts and figures to memory was never the objective of any of those courses. If I had never taken those classes I would never have been able to develop my writing, speaking, scientific reasoning, handling of stress and all the other great things that come with being a full-time learner (can you believe my only purpose in life right now is to learn? It's an amazing privilege).
 
Quote:

Quote:

And may i ask you, how well is our system working out?

 
What is our education rank, compared to other countries?
 
Also: Check this chart out. You will finally realize how big of a failure our education system is

 
Those links are irrelevant to the argument, and their validity / value is also questionable. School should give you the base knowledge of various disciplines, but its purpose isn't so you can go off and apply calculus or your AP Lit discussions to everything you do in life (and if one did that, that would be, in fact, annoying). You're seriously undervaluing your education and in some ways disrespecting the people who've dedicated their lives to teaching you and your peers by saying that a couple trips to the Internet is more worthwhile. Education isn't just an accumulation of facts, and it's important to recognize what it's really teaching you. That's something to keep in mind as you finish high school, and something to really keep in mind if/when you apply to college in two years as I imagine you will--probably aiming high.

Eh, I'm aiming at an average/high job. Physical therapy. 
Dad and mom have always been in the medical field. Dad in the Navy. So they both know the ins and outs of the medical field. They both agreed that Physical therapy was one of the best jobs in the field.
 
Great pay, low stress job, and i get to help people xD
 
Truthfully though, i wouldn't really be happy with the pay. My goal is 100k a year average. So i have always been eyeing becoming a pharmacist.

 

[Xaborus]

Quote:

so any professors or instructors in here, how do you deal with it when you run across cheating in your class? I've been in this position a number of times and deal with it on an individual basis. Some times I report them to the academic dean and they're usually expelled if it do. If they're a student who has been applying themselves and all of a sudden cheated I usually just give them a zero on the exam/essay after a very stern lecture. I understand that doing such is unethical but have you found yourself in the same position?

I'm just in highschool, so i have no professor experiences. But the teachers at my HS give 0's for cheating on tests. Nothing else.

 

[kiwirugby]

I think cheating is one of those common problems that have many complex sources and as such there are no ready remedies.  I like to approach cheating through first an appeal to principles.   Faculty and teachers themselves must model honesty and communicate how much we believe the honesty for all of us is important.   That said, cheating undoubtedly will occur.   A couple of strategies I have used is to ask the the student what they feel they can do to make amends, then take that and build a unique task (one that no one else does or has done) that takes more time than the original assignment, then grade that assignment.  I use this for the students that cheat on their own
 
Another strategy I use when it's clear that several students have been using the same strategy to cheat withe amongst themselves or from one other person is to have consequences for the entire class.  So, four cheaters have succeeded in invalidating the assignment/task/performance/test, so everyone will have to make up the work.   I have never had to actually say who cheated, but I have found out that the peers of cheaters can find out who cheated and.......well, you get the idea.

 

[El_Doug]

no wonder your school is full of cheaters - there is barely any punishment! 
 
Quote:

I'm just in highschool, so i have no professor experiences. But the teachers at my HS give 0's for cheating on tests. Nothing else.

 

[mcnoiserdc]

0 is some punishment.

 

[Xaborus]

Quote:

no wonder your school is full of cheaters - there is barely any punishment! 
 
Quote:

I'm just in highschool, so i have no professor experiences. But the teachers at my HS give 0's for cheating on tests. Nothing else.

 

Well, its punishment enough in our school. Homework/assignment grades are 10 points each. Tests can range in the 100-200 point range, with essays being 100-300 point range. So one 0 on a test can really hurt your grade.