Specific question about my setup

[geomoondog]

Hello everybody!
I am Geomoondog and I consider myself an audiophile. I am new to Head-Fi and appreciative about its existence.  
The main purpose of my setup at home is to listen to loss-less music formats like FLAC through a media player. The media player with internal harddrive of 6TB is connected via HDMI and also as a second option through analogue RCA cables to a YAQIN CD3 6N8P Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Tube Buffer Processor into a YAQIN MS12B 12AX7 X2 TUBE PreAmplifier Integrated Amplifier. That then connects to a Sony str-da5800es receiver.  I am now planning to buy a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd generation headphones. 
 
My question is now: Do I really need to also get headphones amplifyer?  Or will I get the best sound though the headphones connection of my receiver?

 

[PurpleAngel]

I would assume the Sony offer a better DAC feature, then the Media player's RCA output?
 
I would think going from Media player >HDMI>STR-DA5800ES>headphones would be fine.
(keep the audio signal digital until it gets to the Sony's DAC)
 
What is the make and model of the media player?
 
Guess you should test both the HDMI and RCA connections from the Media player, to the receiver, see which your ears like better.

 

[geomoondog]

The media player I have is: KDLINKS A300 4K Android Quad Core 3D Smart H.265 Network HD TV Media Player with HDD Bay, WIFI, DOLBY 7.1, Gigabit LAN, 2GB RAM, 16GB Storage, 4 Core CPU, 8 Core GPU, XBMC/KODI Support, H.265 Hardware Decoding & 4K Support
I will try your advice.  I just don't want to invest for a headphone amp if it is not needed.
 Thank you for getting back to me so rapidly.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by geomoondog /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I am now planning to buy a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd generation headphones. 

 

My question is now: Do I really need to also get headphones amplifyer?  Or will I get the best sound though the headphones connection of my receiver?

 

The T1 is very efficient, but you won't know if your receiver has issues driving 600ohm loads until you try.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by geomoondog /img/forum/go_quote.gif

The media player with internal harddrive of 6TB is connected via HDMI and also as a second option through analogue RCA cables to a YAQIN CD3 6N8P Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Tube Buffer Processor into a YAQIN MS12B 12AX7 X2 TUBE PreAmplifier Integrated Amplifier. That then connects to a Sony str-da5800es receiver.  I am now planning to buy a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd generation headphones. 

 

In any case one consideration here is where to hook up a headphone amp..as it is I'd rather use a simpler audio chain than buffer to amp to receiver (which already has an amp). I'm not sure how that chain even works.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  The media player I have is: KDLINKS A300 4K Android Quad Core 3D Smart H.265 Network HD TV Media Player with HDD Bay, WIFI, DOLBY 7.1, Gigabit LAN, 2GB RAM, 16GB Storage, 4 Core CPU, 8 Core GPU, XBMC/KODI Support, H.265 Hardware Decoding & 4K Support
I will try your advice.  I just don't want to invest for a headphone amp if it is not needed.
 Thank you for getting back to me so rapidly.

 
My $500 Yamaha RX-V671 A/V receiver can drive my 600-Ohm Beyer headphones (DT880/DT990)
You have a $2000 Sony ES series A/V receiver.
I'm guessing to out perform the Sony with a separate DAC/headphone amplifier your going to have to spend a lot more then you might want to.
 
(for those that do not know, Sony's ES series is Sony's Premium audio series, nice stuff)
 
HDMI can pass 8-channels of 24-bit/192K (un-compressed) digital audio, so there is way more then enough bandwidth for your 2-channel FLAC audio files.

 

[Me x3]

  Hello everybody!
I am Geomoondog and I consider myself an audiophile. I am new to Head-Fi and appreciative about its existence.  
The main purpose of my setup at home is to listen to loss-less music formats like FLAC through a media player. The media player with internal harddrive of 6TB is connected via HDMI and also as a second option through analogue RCA cables to a YAQIN CD3 6N8P Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Tube Buffer Processor into a YAQIN MS12B 12AX7 X2 TUBE PreAmplifier Integrated Amplifier. That then connects to a Sony str-da5800es receiver.  I am now planning to buy a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd generation headphones. 
 
My question is now: Do I really need to also get headphones amplifyer?  Or will I get the best sound though the headphones connection of my receiver?

 

   
My $500 Yamaha RX-V671 A/V receiver can drive my 600-Ohm Beyer headphones (DT880/DT990)
You have a $2000 Sony ES series A/V receiver.
I'm guessing to out perform the Sony with a separate DAC/headphone amplifier your going to have to spend a lot more then you might want to.
 
(for those that do not know, Sony's ES series is Sony's Premium audio series, nice stuff)
 
HDMI can pass 8-channels of 24-bit/192K (un-compressed) digital audio, so there is way more then enough bandwidth for your 2-channel FLAC audio files.

 
 
We need to be careful here since we are talking about the T1 instead of DT880/600
 
Most receivers have a really high output impedance for headphones (often over 400 Ohm)
 
When you plug DT880/600 into a receiver with really high output impedance, the frequency response of the headphone is mostly preserved because its impedance doesn't vary too much. It goes up to 720 Ohm in the mid-bass but that's it.
All you get is a very slight boost in the mid-bass, which can be pleasing considering DT880 is a neutral/almost coldish headphone.
 
With the T1 it's a different story.
If you look at T1's impedance plot, it goes up to 1420 Ohm in the mid-bass, so when you plug it into a jack with high output impedance, the frequency response won't be preserved and you'll get a significant boost centered in mid-bass.
The T1 is already a warm sounding headphone, so the added bass won't be that great.
 
T1v2 is significanty warmer than T1v1 (and should be similar in terms of impedance), so things are even worse in that case, especially if you want a pretty neutral response.
 
I've tried my T1v1 plugged into a Yamaha A-S500 (470 Ohm output impedance) and they sounded pretty bad, definitely bloomy.
The original Magni was miles ahead in terms of performance driving the T1.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  We need to be careful here since we are talking about the T1 instead of DT880/600
Most receivers have a really high output impedance for headphones (often over 400 Ohm)
When you plug DT880/600 into a receiver with really high output impedance, the frequency response of the headphone is mostly preserved because its impedance doesn't vary too much. It goes up to 720 Ohm in the mid-bass but that's it.
All you get is a very slight boost in the mid-bass, which can be pleasing considering DT880 is a neutral/almost coldish headphone.
With the T1 it's a different story.
If you look at T1's impedance plot, it goes up to 1420 Ohm in the mid-bass, so when you plug it into a jack with high output impedance, the frequency response won't be preserved and you'll get a significant boost centered in mid-bass.
The T1 is already a warm sounding headphone, so the added bass won't be that great.
T1v2 is significantly warmer than T1v1 (and should be similar in terms of impedance), so things are even worse in that case, especially if you want a pretty neutral response.
I've tried my T1v1 plugged into a Yamaha A-S500 (470 Ohm output impedance) and they sounded pretty bad, definitely bloomy.
The original Magni was miles ahead in terms of performance driving the T1.

 
I'm sure in the old days the headphone jack on the receivers had a high output impedance (400-Ohms?)
By I can plug my 50-Ohm Sennheiser HD558s into my Yamaha RX-V671, and I'm not having any impedance issues, maybe very slightly elevated bass.
I plug in my 250-Ohm Beyers and they sound good.
So I really doubt there would be an impedance issue with 600-Ohm T1 headphones.
The thread starter has a $2000 Sony ES series A/V receiver, really can't see Sony skipping on the quality of the headphone output.
So can't see the Sony having anywhere near the headphone output impedance of 400-Ohms, like some older receiver/stereos.
But it's just my two cents.
 
And the Thread Starter can always just try the T1 plugged into the Sony and test for himself, then decide if he needs to get a DAC/Headphone amplifier.

 

[Me x3]

   
I'm sure in the old days the headphone jack on the receivers had a high output impedance (400-Ohms?)
By I can plug my 50-Ohm Sennheiser HD558s into my Yamaha RX-V671, and I'm not having any impedance issues, maybe very slightly elevated bass.
I plug in my 250-Ohm Beyers and they sound good.
So I really doubt there would be an impedance issue with 600-Ohm T1 headphones.
The thread starter has a $2000 Sony ES series A/V receiver, really can't see Sony skipping on the quality of the headphone output.
So can't see the Sony having anywhere near the headphone output impedance of 400-Ohms, like some older receiver/stereos.
But it's just my two cents.
 
And the Thread Starter can always just try the T1 plugged into the Sony and test for himself, then decide if he needs to get a DAC/Headphone amplifier.

 
Old days as much as today.
 
My Yamaha A-S500 (Integrated Stereo) has an output impedance of 470 Ohm for headphones, and it's a modern amplifier.
I'm pretty sure it's the same for the 1000 dollar A-S700 (Integrated Stereo).
 
It might have to do with the fact that these devices do not have a built in headphone amplifier, so they might bring down the signal from the speaker path.
 
I checked the manual, I think your RX-V671 has an output impedance of 560 Ohm for headphones

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Old days as much as today.
My Yamaha A-S500 (Integrated Stereo) has an output impedance of 470 Ohm for headphones, and it's a modern amplifier.
I'm pretty sure it's the same for the 1000 dollar A-S700 (Integrated Stereo).
It might have to do with the fact that these devices do not have a built in headphone amplifier, so they might bring down the signal from the speaker path.
I checked the manual, I think your RX-V671 has an output impedance of 560 Ohm for headphones

 
Someone else said the 100wV/470-Ohm (on the A-S500) means the Yamaha headphone jack can feed 100mV of power at 470-Ohm impedance.
and my RX-V671 can feed 100mV of power at 560-Ohm impedance, at the headphone jack.
Which would say my RX-V671 outputs more power for headphones, then your A-S500.
 
But still try to find more info on the Yamaha's headphone output impedance.

 

[geomoondog]

At the end of this week, I will purchase the T1 2nd gen.  As soon as I plugged it in my Sony ES receiver, I will post how it sounds to me.  
I really appreciate your inputs on this.  Thank you so much.

 

[Me x3]

   
Someone else said the 100wV/470-Ohm (on the A-S500) means the Yamaha headphone jack can feed 100mV of power at 470-Ohm impedance.
and my RX-V671 can feed 100mV of power at 560-Ohm impedance, at the headphone jack.
Which would say my RX-V671 outputs more power for headphones, then your A-S500.
I

No, no...
That's not right.

 

[Me x3]

The specs goes like this: 
 
For RX-V671 (You can check this on page 124 of the Owner's Manual)
 
Headphone Jack Rated Output / Impedance
AV5 etc. (1 kHz, 50mV, 8Ω ................................100mV/560Ω
 
When there's a 50mV, 1 kHz input signal at AV5 input, with the impedance selector for 8Ω speakers.
You get 100 mV (Voltage, not Power) at the headphone jack. And the impedance of the jack is 560 Ohm.
 

 

 

[Me x3]

Similar specs for Yamaha A-S500
Phones jack rated output/Impedance
CD, etc. (Input 1 kHz, 200 mV, 8Ω) .................430 mV/470Ω

 
Sorry for the multi-post, the text editor is not working fine today.
 
-------------------------
 
By measuring the output voltage with no load, and with a known load, you can calculate the output impedance on your jack.
 
You can use this online calculator.
http://www.raltron.com/cust/tools/voltage_divider.asp
 
The no load voltage is the “Input Voltage”, R2 is the known load resistance (don’t use headphones), the Output Voltage is the loaded voltage. Click Compute and R1 is the calculated output impedance.
 
This can be done using a 60 hz sine wave file (Audacity can create such a file), a Digital Multi Meter (DMM), and a 15 – 33 ohm resistor. Most DMMs are only accurate around 60 hz.
 
Play the 60 hz sine wave file and adjust the volume for about 0.5 volts. Then attach the resistor and note the new voltage.
 
--------------------------
 
geomoondog

 At the end of this week, I will purchase the T1 2nd gen.  As soon as I plugged it in my Sony ES receiver, I will post how it sounds to me.  
I really appreciate your inputs on this.  Thank you so much.

 

I've been looking for the output impedance of your receiver but it's really hard to find on the internet. 
 
Here's what I'm talking about explained with a graph.
The Black trace is the T1v2
The Red trace shows frequency response deviations when plugging T1v2 into a jack with high output impedance.
 

 
Best chances are the receiver will drive the T1v2 just fine but you'll get a warmer sound (not as precise as intended)

 

[geomoondog]

I received the T1 Second Gen. headphones this morning and I immediately tested it.
My very first impression was that the sound is much warmer indeed just as mentioned in many reviews and in this tread. And I experience that as a positive thing. No there is no "but" after this sentence.
The tracks I tried out on my KDLink A 300 player were loss-less formats and a variety of jazz and 1950s oldies and classic and pop music.  The quality of the tunes being regular and high resolution  tracks.  
My conclusion is that the T1 Second Gen. are the best headphones I have ever tried.  My ES Sony Receiver is more than adequate to drive these headphones.  I can not imagine that the sound could sound more sublime than the current sound.