[PotatoWhisperer]

So for most of my time on this headphone forum, I've been mostly reading and lurking though I've been around quietly for almost a year now (time sure flies)! Anyhow, I've mostly been a headphone person my whole life but recently I've started becoming intrigued with speakers. Now I have a few questions regarding speakers.
 
1. Is there a good forum like this one that focuses on strictly speakers?
 
2. Are there nice review sites that are pretty reputable for speakers (like Inner Fidelity and 6moon)
 
3. Does a good DAC that you would normally pair with headphones work great with Speakers as well? (this kind of seems like a dumb question but I really want to be sure....)
 
4. Is this a terrible idea to get into speakers? Is my wallet safe? (Headphones are already a sinkhole.....)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
1. Is there a good forum like this one that focuses on strictly speakers?

 
Audio Karma, Audio Asylum, AVS Forum
 
For car audio there's DIYmobileaudio.
 

 
2. Are there nice review sites that are pretty reputable for speakers (like Inner Fidelity and 6moon)

 

Not as many. I mean with headphones each head is already full of differing variables (which is why InnerFidelity measures headphones in two positions, to account for variances in how people put them on; even then that doesn't take into account how tightly they are worn by people), and sound interacting with an entire room is just more complicated. Unless everybody has a room comparable to engineering labs - like the one in the University of Alabama, or what speaker manufacturers have - the measurements have an even bigger set of variables that they can't account for.
 
That said some sites do measure the speakers in a sufficiently treated room, so if yours is, then those results are useful.
 

 
3. Does a good DAC that you would normally pair with headphones work great with Speakers as well? (this kind of seems like a dumb question but I really want to be sure....)

 
Yes. That's why one box DAC-HPamp-Preamps have a preamp output to a speaker power amp.
 
The only thing that can be different is a Meier DAC having Crossfeed for example, which you shoudl disable if you're using the preamp output.
 
 

 
4. Is this a terrible idea to get into speakers? Is my wallet safe? (Headphones are already a sinkhole.....)

 
Do you have a dedicated room that you can line with sound deadening material and hopefully not have to use for practically any other purpose?

 

[PotatoWhisperer]

 
Do you have a dedicated room that you can line with sound deadening material and hopefully not have to use for practically any other purpose?

Nobody needs a bedroom right....? Yea I don't need a bedroom 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Nobody needs a bedroom right....? Yea I don't need a bedroom 

 

You can use a sofa that folds out into a bed. Just move it a bit farther from the back wall and line that wall with some acoustic foam and listen. When you're sleepy just convert it into a bed. Done.

if anything what's really stopping me from doing that to my bedroom (apart from the cost) is because it gets hot and sweaty in there. And that's due to something you wouldn't want to open windows for. Plus imagine finding underwear or body fluids on the speakers.

 

[PotatoWhisperer]

I also assume that having small-medium sized room with windows, a fat desk and shelves wouldn't be ideal?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I also assume that having small-medium sized room with windows, a fat desk and shelves wouldn't be ideal?

 

Not the desk as it would take up too much space, unless of course it's an office first and you're putting speakers in there for when you're working. 

 

As for the shelves, I suggest you line all walls or at least the three walls (except behind the speakers) with shelves and then measure the shelves as the new walls for when you need to keep the speakers and your seat away from them. Make the room smaller but at least it's not obstructing anything by being in the middle, which in the case of the desk is either in the way or force you to move the listening chair too close to the speakers that you might as well have just put nearfield speakers on or by the desk and listened from there. Otherwise just use speakers with as few drivers as possible - ex 2-way 2 driver, or 2-way MTM - primarily to minimize time alignment issues.

 

[PotatoWhisperer]

Hmm any thoughts on a two tower speaker stereo setup hooked up to a receiver for surround sound? I was planning on listening through music mainly through both tower speakers but using the surround for movies and shows. Wanted to spend a decent penny on the floor standing speakers (500+) amp and dac but skimp a bit on the other speakers and sub (~100 for each).

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Hmm any thoughts on a two tower speaker stereo setup hooked up to a receiver for surround sound? I was planning on listening through music mainly through both tower speakers but using the surround for movies and shows. Wanted to spend a decent penny on the floor standing speakers (500+) amp and dac but skimp a bit on the other speakers and sub (~100 for each).

 

My primary problem with surround systems is the cost. In most cases a mainstream receiver's current delivery isn't as good as a NAD or Rotel 2ch amp that you can get used for less for example, although some newer receivers have gotten better (I'd still go with Marantz though), and the resale value of receivers tend to be low owing to the digital section's features getting outdated. Receivers with preamp outputs or dedicated pre-pros are too expensive. And then the alternative of getting a high sensitivity speaker set to be driven by a relatively low end receiver so as to not stress the amp section isn't easy because low end speakers have lower sensitivity (or they have a really crappy response - something just has to give somewhere). I've listened to enough entry level HT set ups with Wharfedale Diamonds and lower range receivers to know how different the low on those Wharfedales are when driven by a NAD (and I've owned several Wharfedales all driven by a NAD amp).

 

And you can't use a regular "amp and dac" since those have 2ch outputs, you need something with 5.1 outputs. An entry level HT receiver will set you back around $250 to $300. Now, gambling on your room being small enough that you won't need to push the amp in these hard enough might be worth looking into, but then chances are that if the room is small enough to get really dynamic sound off these at a relatively closer listening position, you're not sitting far enough to not have time alignment issues. The closer you sit to a multi-driver set-up the more the distance variance between your ears to the woofers will be, and teh 6in+ (the midwoofer) between the tweeter and woofer on a 3-way/2.5-tower is a lot more of a factor than sub because you can reposition the latter (it not put it on a platform).

 

One other thing you shouldn't skimp on is the center speaker - it has to be from the same series as your mains, otherwise you can hear the main dialogue having one tone and then one voice coming in sounding different and then it shifts in tone again once it's coming out of the center.

 

Personally if this isn't primarily a theater room and still more for music you might as well invest on it being a really good 2ch system with a sub so you still get some rumble in movies rather than make too many compromises in favor of lower cost and end up with an HT system that will suck for music and whose selling point is that you can hear (not that good) sound all around you. I could get a good 2ch system together for less money than that.

 

Speakers: Dayton B652-AIR and Sanus stands

https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-B652-AIR-Bookshelf-Speaker/dp/B00NOA58RS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486003907&sr=8-1&keywords=Dayton+AIR

https://www.amazon.com/BF31-B1-Speaker-Stands-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00006JQ5O/ref=sr_1_7?s=furniture&ie=UTF8&qid=1486004083&sr=1-7&keywords=speaker+stands

 

Subwoofer: Dayton Audio SUB-800

https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-SUB-800-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B0063NU30K/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486003860&sr=8-3&keywords=Dayton+subwoofer

 

Amplifier: APPJ minitube

https://www.amazon.com/Gemtune-APPJ-PA1501A-amplifier-6AD10/dp/B00X5ECQ4Q/ref=sr_1_52?ie=UTF8&qid=1486005361&sr=8-52&keywords=tube+amplifier

 

[sharktopus]

 Originally Posted by PotatoWhisperer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  3. Does a good DAC that you would normally pair with headphones work great with Speakers as well? (this kind of seems like a dumb question but I really want to be sure....)

If you have a DAC which has a line out port or capability, then yes, it should work just fine with speakers.  If it doesn't have a line level output, then you run the risk of bi-amping your source.  I also saw that you were thinking of running a 5.1 surround system.  For that you almost definitely would need a different and specialized DAC as opposed to using what you already have (which is always cheaper).

 

 
4. Is this a terrible idea to get into speakers? Is my wallet safe? (Headphones are already a sinkhole.....)

Speakers are great! Especially if you have friends who love music too!  I got my housemates to help go in on our stereo setup, and it helps a lot to spread the cost around.  But, like in headphones, you get what you pay for.
 

 

 

My primary problem with surround systems is the cost. In most cases a mainstream receiver's current delivery isn't as good as a NAD or Rotel 2ch amp that you can get used for less for example, although some newer receivers have gotten better (I'd still go with Marantz though), and the resale value of receivers tend to be low owing to the digital section's features getting outdated. Receivers with preamp outputs or dedicated pre-pros are too expensive. And then the alternative of getting a high sensitivity speaker set to be driven by a relatively low end receiver so as to not stress the amp section isn't easy because low end speakers have lower sensitivity (or they have a really crappy response - something just has to give somewhere). I've listened to enough entry level HT set ups with Wharfedale Diamonds and lower range receivers to know how different the low on those Wharfedales are when driven by a NAD (and I've owned several Wharfedales all driven by a NAD amp).

 

And you can't use a regular "amp and dac" since those have 2ch outputs, you need something with 5.1 outputs. An entry level HT receiver will set you back around $250 to $300. Now, gambling on your room being small enough that you won't need to push the amp in these hard enough might be worth looking into, but then chances are that if the room is small enough to get really dynamic sound off these at a relatively closer listening position, you're not sitting far enough to not have time alignment issues. The closer you sit to a multi-driver set-up the more the distance variance between your ears to the woofers will be, and teh 6in+ (the midwoofer) between the tweeter and woofer on a 3-way/2.5-tower is a lot more of a factor than sub because you can reposition the latter (it not put it on a platform).

 

One other thing you shouldn't skimp on is the center speaker - it has to be from the same series as your mains, otherwise you can hear the main dialogue having one tone and then one voice coming in sounding different and then it shifts in tone again once it's coming out of the center.

 

Personally if this isn't primarily a theater room and still more for music you might as well invest on it being a really good 2ch system with a sub so you still get some rumble in movies rather than make too many compromises in favor of lower cost and end up with an HT system that will suck for music and whose selling point is that you can hear (not that good) sound all around you. I could get a good 2ch system together for less money than that.

I definitely agree with essentially everything ProtegeManiac has to say.  I have owned two different surround sound receivers, and got at best, around 25-50% back trying to resell them only a few years later.  In contrast, I have a big hulking Altec Lansing 2ch amp from the mid 80's, and though it has more heatsinks than you can shake a stick at, it sounds amazing, and is actually increasing in value.  In my experience, when you're looking to buy an amplifier, its better to have more power than you think you will need, especially because a well made 2ch amp can last you quite some time, and if you decide to upgrade your speakers, you don't have to do it at the expense (literally and figuratively) of a new amp.  Also, if you are thinking about using your room for both say movie watching and music, a well set up listening room can sound quite good with most movies.  Also, as one might expect, it is far easier (and cheaper) to set things up for a stereo setup than for a 5.1 setup.  The more speakers that you have, the more work you have to do adjusting speaer positioning, volume levels, sound bouncing off walls/ceilings, etc.  Or, you can say heck! That all sounds overly complicated!  I just want to listen to some tunes with my buddies and watch movies, in which case, you can find some decent speakers, plunk 'em down, and get on with your life.  If you've already got a decent chunk of change socked away into hifi headphones, this may be the best option for you.  If you want some interesting reading on room setups, etc, check these out: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-LhG7wtCjqkY/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html
and for a MUCH more in-depth (but IMO very interesting) read about room acoustics: http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
 
Cheers!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
I definitely agree with essentially everything ProtegeManiac has to say.  I have owned two different surround sound receivers, and got at best, around 25-50% back trying to resell them only a few years later.  In contrast, I have a big hulking Altec Lansing 2ch amp from the mid 80's, and though it has more heatsinks than you can shake a stick at, it sounds amazing, and is actually increasing in value. 

 

There is a way around this though, but it's only practicable if you're using a computer (and a good reason for turning a gaming rig into a couch gaming rig): put a good soundcard in it (or an external card if using mITX), buy a custom 6ch passive preamp for it or buy an external soundcard with 5.1 outputs. Then hook up three high-value for dollar power amps - one for Front L and Rear L, one for Center (biamped if possible), one for Front R and Rear R - plus a powered sub, and you basically have all the benefits of a receiver and better amplification for less money. If you have more cash then by all means get power amps made for HT systems - some come as 5ch or 3ch (for Center and surrounds, then you just add the more powerful 2ch from the same series to drive the mains, which will be great when you listen to 2ch audio).

 

Of course, the value of this system still depends on gear. If you're getting a Soundblaster X7 for 5.1 analogue preamp output then it's only cheaper vs a dedicated pre-pro. There's that cheaper X-Fi external unit though. The only things you'll really give up here is the convenient universal remote when using a receiver (as the remote works on the TV as well as the DSP settings), automatic room correction (at the very least, position all speakers equidistant to your listening position so as not to need time alignment, past that just use EQ manually), and streamed content has to be done in a browser with the PC running rather than any of those dongles (unless it has SPDIF output, in which case they'll work with the SB X7). However if you're going to use a gaming PC from a couch, the room will be too big for practically any multimedia speakers from your desk set up anyway.

 

[sharktopus]

Interesting! I would have never thought to individually amp the outputs from a computer's 5.1 sound card.  That's a really cool idea.

 

If you have more cash then by all means get power amps made for HT systems

Also, what did you mean when you said "HT systems"?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Also, what did you mean when you said "HT systems"?

 
By "HT systems" I mean something like these...


 
...and the amps referred to below have examples on the links below that.

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

If you have more cash then by all means get power amps made for HT systems - some come as 5ch or 3ch (for Center and surrounds, then you just add the more powerful 2ch from the same series to drive the mains, which will be great when you listen to 2ch audio).

 
Preamp-Processor - https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1
5ch amp - https://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-XPA-5-5-Channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B008O37E3G
3ch amp - https://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-XPA-3-3-Channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B008O37ELI
2ch amp - https://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-XPA-2-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B008O37EYK