Speaker height advice
Aug 11, 2014 at 1:45 PM Post #16 of 29
   
For nearfield use the 4.5in (?) drivers would be enough. As for imaging and response, just experiment with the height - no need to expect phenomenal imaging at that price range at any distance from them, but simply avoid any really abnormal imaging problems.

Yeah these have a 4" driver, but from the sound you would never know.  I have them at a pretty good height but when I have a bit more time I will try other heights and see if I notice much of a difference.  I don't have them pointing directly at my head but I do get a good sound image (not sure that's the correct term)
 
I will continue to experiment and see if I can make them sound better, to me at least.
 
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:47 PM Post #17 of 29
  I don't have them pointing directly at my head but I do get a good sound image (not sure that's the correct term)
 

 
No need to point them directly, that takes a bit of experimentation as that can be determined by the dispersion pattern of the speakers plus reflections in the room. 
 
A sound image is basically having the instruments in their proper place relative to each other. For simplicity's sake, let's use a simpler set-up: vocalist front and center, guitar on one side and another in center or the other side, bass guitar in the center, percussion a bit behind the vocals including the bass drum and drum rolls pan well proportional to the other instruments.
 
Now, a few other points:
 
1) Depth is hard to achieve. Your drums might not necessarily be that far behind the vocals, but as long as it is, consider that acceptable. Other speakers create an illusion of depth by pushing vocals way too far forward., but you'll notice that the really, really good speakers do more of pushing the drums farther to the back of the stage.
 
2) Everything is proportional. Only the best set-ups can be at 1:1 scale to an actual live performance, and even then, not all of them - it may be 1:1 to the size of a small band in a jazz club, but it's not going to be proportional to a full orchestra, or Metallica in San Francisco with a full orchestra. That depth in the placement of the drums? No need to actually be 1.5m behind the vocals, especially if the speakers are only 1.5m apart. Same thing with headphones - it's all to scale at one's head.
 
3) Relative Positioning. Aside from proportionality, as long as each instrument is in a proper place relative to the rest (use the vocals as the reference point), then it works. I've tried some systems that put the bass drum away from the rest of the drum set and sounds like it's coming from in front of the vocalist; in another, the drum rolls went around my head, whereas the vocals and guitars were all in front of me, which makes it look like the Fantastic Four formed a band with Sue using invisible force fields to suspend drums around the center of the audience (where a listener at home should sound like), then Reed started pounding on the drums by stretching, all the while Johnny and Ben stayed on their spots to the left and right of the stage.
 
4) Imaging may not have been a factor in recording, and even when some care was taken to follow proper stereoscopic positioning, not much care will be given for depth. Some albums' recording quality just sucks - pop albums will really have no sense of depth, for one. I've also listened to some rock albums where everything sounds like is in the center (like it's recorded in Mono). Also, electronically amplified instruments won't stage as precisely as acoustic instruments, since the amplifier has its own speaker. No matter how you position that in the booth, as long as two microphones are running, the speaker on the guitar amp's speaker will not be as precise in locating it as well as an acoustic guitar would be (and if you use only one the sound can get pushed too far to one side).
 
Read up on stereoscopic recording, a lot of what counts as proper recording will have an effect on the imaging on playback.
 
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:52 PM Post #18 of 29
I know this is subject to opinion, but whats one good track or album YOU would use to check the speaker height and angles in my situation???  My ears aren't trained like some of you but if I have the same CD you would use, I'd like to see how you would hear it.
 
I have about 1000+ CD's to choose from and a ton of high bit digital files, but I want to see what you would choose.
 
Aug 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM Post #19 of 29
FWIW You should raise & lower your head relative to the tweeter & see if you hear the best spot. Then work on mounting the speakers accordingly. Small changes CAN make a big difference in how the speakers image. Likewise with toe in. Point them toward your ears & then a little bit out until you like the center image. A well recorded female voice works well for these adjustments. Jennifer Warnes The Well or Famous Blue Raincoat.
 
kev
 
Aug 11, 2014 at 11:45 PM Post #20 of 29
   
snip
 
Read up on stereoscopic recording, a lot of what counts as proper recording will have an effect on the imaging on playback.

 
Not sure about the term stereoscopic with regard to audio recording & reproduction. Unless you are making a reference to some sort of visualized soundscape. I think the term stereophonic covers the subject pretty well, including imaging & sound stage. Anyway, a lot of good information in your post. Certainly plenty to give a novice something to get started with. 
 
Thanks,
kev
 
Aug 12, 2014 at 1:40 AM Post #21 of 29
   
Not sure about the term stereoscopic with regard to audio recording & reproduction. Unless you are making a reference to some sort of visualized soundscape. I think the term stereophonic covers the subject pretty well, including imaging & sound stage. Anyway, a lot of good information in your post. Certainly plenty to give a novice something to get started with. 

 
A visualized soundscape can be reproduced in playback if proper stereoscopic recording is made. You use two microphones at left and right (instead of recording a mono signal then mixing it as left, right, or center). Distance from the microphones can also affect where the sound can be located in during playback. The best example of this is on EMMA test discs where they have a microphone set-up and one guy talks about all the technical aspects of this while walking around the room, which your car as is where the EMMA disc is used (and of course your speakers at home) must replicate a smooth and even movement (ie it must not move in a wider arc on one side, as is the case when making compromises in car audio). The Chesky Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc also has the same demo but in binaural recording specifically for headphones.
 
  I know this is subject to opinion, but whats one good track or album YOU would use to check the speaker height and angles in my situation???  My ears aren't trained like some of you but if I have the same CD you would use, I'd like to see how you would hear it.

 
You wouldn't really need to be track-specific to note if there's anything wrong with height and position - as long as there's a variance in the Y-axis beyond a slightly lower bass drum for example (since in a recording booth it comes from close to the floor, even without reflections off the floor) then there's something wrong with the height. Generally, try rock and metal, as these tend to use a lot of percussion vs the usual pop music that people dance to (whose idea of percussion may be the kind of bass that wakes you up in the middle of the night as some arse in a black SUV blasts Beyonce through his Audiobahn subwoofers) - if the cymbals or (female) vocals are noticeably higher, you've got a problem.
 
Just as an example, Metallica's albums easily showed I was sitting too close to my old tower speakers before because the bass drum was clearly coming from the floor (instead of just a little bit lower than the other sounds). When I moved my seat back by about 1m (to around 2.2m), the bass drum not only moved up closer to the other instruments, but moved behind them as well.
 
Aug 13, 2014 at 9:15 PM Post #22 of 29
   
A visualized soundscape can be reproduced in playback if proper stereoscopic recording is made. You use two microphones at left and right (instead of recording a mono signal then mixing it as left, right, or center). Distance from the microphones can also affect where the sound can be located in during playback. The best example of this is on EMMA test discs where they have a microphone set-up and one guy talks about all the technical aspects of this while walking around the room, which your car as is where the EMMA disc is used (and of course your speakers at home) must replicate a smooth and even movement (ie it must not move in a wider arc on one side, as is the case when making compromises in car audio). The Chesky Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc also has the same demo but in binaural recording specifically for headphones.
 
 
 

My point was, the term "stereoscopic recording" is not one I am familiar with when talking about audio. Stereophonic recording is & pretty much covers what you are describing. Stereoscopic relates to light and images and not sound AFAIK.
kev
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 12:08 AM Post #23 of 29
  My point was, the term "stereoscopic recording" is not one I am familiar with when talking about audio. Stereophonic recording is & pretty much covers what you are describing. Stereoscopic relates to light and images and not sound AFAIK.
kev

 
Ah yes, sorry for the confusion. I just got back from my physical and the entry on my eye exam (plus a drinking debate over carnivorous dinosaurs) got stereoscopic stuck in my head.
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 1:12 AM Post #25 of 29
  Either way Im not trained enough to even get what your talking about... I just got my speakers at a decent height that sound good to me and Im going to leave them there!!!

 
You can get a sense of how stereo recording works through demo discs, like what they use on EMMA or IASCA competitions, or the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc. Like I've mentioned, they have tracks like one guy walking around a microphone set-up, and his voice should move around the center of the soundstage, to the sides, rear, and way out front although in this sense "front" is beyond where the mic is (which is the usual "front" of the soundstage where the vocals are strongest).
 
In any case best you listen to that so you'll get how mic placement relative to the soundsource works.
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 6:47 AM Post #26 of 29
   
Ah yes, sorry for the confusion. I just got back from my physical and the entry on my eye exam (plus a drinking debate over carnivorous dinosaurs) got stereoscopic stuck in my head.

Ha Ha, carnivorous dinosaurs? My favorite drinking subject. :) Agree that the Chesky disks are some of the best for exploring what stereo reproduction is capable of. Most people have no idea how 3 dimensional a sound stage can be. Another standard for assessing your system is recording, http://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Dances-Rachmaninov-Op-Grieg/dp/B000009IG7/ref=sr_1_57?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1408013017&sr=1-57&keywords=symphonic+dances+rachmaninoff 
 
 
Cheers,
kev
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 10:03 AM Post #27 of 29
This is why I requested what tracks do you test with so I can see if I have it or if I need to buy it to hear how you would test these speakers if you were sitting here...
 
I dont want to use some trance/house music if you think a Jean-Michel Jarre track sounds good on speakers...
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 12:27 PM Post #28 of 29
  This is why I requested what tracks do you test with so I can see if I have it or if I need to buy it to hear how you would test these speakers if you were sitting here...
 
I dont want to use some trance/house music if you think a Jean-Michel Jarre track sounds good on speakers...

Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms is pretty much the audiophile benchmark.  It has an incredible dynamic range and the SACD sounds fantastic.  Another good choice is Steeley Dan - Aja, very well recorded and on a good system sounds excellent.
 
You can also pick pretty much anything from Diana Krall, and Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon is another good choice.
 
Aug 14, 2014 at 1:48 PM Post #29 of 29
  Ha Ha, carnivorous dinosaurs? My favorite drinking subject. :) Agree that the Chesky disks are some of the best for exploring what stereo reproduction is capable of. Most people have no idea how 3 dimensional a sound stage can be. Another standard for assessing your system is recording, http://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Dances-Rachmaninov-Op-Grieg/dp/B000009IG7/ref=sr_1_57?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1408013017&sr=1-57&keywords=symphonic+dances+rachmaninoff 

 
I think I still have that in a hard drive somewhere; the original CD (that I bought used) got lost during a car audio event.
 
 
  This is why I requested what tracks do you test with so I can see if I have it or if I need to buy it to hear how you would test these speakers if you were sitting here...

 
Try Epica's The Classical Conspiracy - it's one of the newer live recordings that don't sound crappy vs the studio recordings. Also the placement of the orchestra has a bit more depth than in the studio versions. If anything clearly makes this suck vs the studio recordings, this was a bit too soon post-Staph infection and it shows in the vocal performance. Orchestra is also staged a bit higher than usual for any music like this. Also, Disc 1 has nice renditions of classic arias.
 

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