[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon You're taking his words too literally. He means you've been arguing the "don't knock it until you've tried it" argument, which, in the case of something like say, illicit drugs or certain sexual activities, holds up. But something where science is all that matters, that card just doesn't fly. Here are some of your statements where you used the "don't knock it until you've tried it" card: It's very clear your argument is essentially "you cannot say if it's good or bad until you've tried it". For something like food, social or physical activities this argument works, because those things are completely subjective. You can't say "I hate apples because there's no scientific evidence that they will taste better than oranges." No, the only way is to try it. But that's not the case with audio. Audio is an AC signal travelling across a particular medium to get to its destination. We know that the cable or connectors won't matter because there's no scientific data to support the idea that the quality of the cable (within reason) or the connector will alter the signal significantly enough to be heard. And we can measure this with oscilliscopes too. But if that's not good enough for you, I think Nixie posted some links to studies a few pages back where blind ABX tests failed to show any difference in cables or connectors. And what do you, KZEE, think of psychological bias? It's a proven and well documented subject in psychology. Any freshman college psych book will cover it in some form or another. One example that I remember from my course is memory recollection. If you're in a bad mood, memories of good times will seem sour. If you're in a good mood, memories of good times will seem great. If you expect a cable to sound better, it will. If you drop $500 on a cable and expect it to brighten the sound and open up the soundstage, it will. If you go into a cable purchase thinking it will make no difference whatsoever, psychological bias is reduced a LOT. But blind ABX tests are the only way to be completely rule out psychological bias. Except maybe for objective testing like with audio analyzers or oscilliscopes, but from what I understand those have limitations. However I don't think I've seen factual scientific data supporting either side of that claim so I won't go into that. So here's my question for you, KZEE...have you ever done a blind ABX switched test? How can YOU really be sure you can hear the difference without completely eliminating psychological bias?

Well, I take people and their words at face value Emon, and when the statement is made that I implied that one needs to purchase a product in order to evaluate it when I in fact didn't say anything of the sort, then I'm going to take that literally and I'm going to speak up. However, I will agree that your 'you cannot say if it's good or bad until you've tried it' analogy was probably the point that the poster was trying to make, and although I wouldn't have worded it the way you have, that's exactly the point I was trying to make, and I stand by that assertion. And I whole heartedly disagree with you that that premise can't and doesn't apply to audio. I mean if the poster were to have auditioned and listened to music through different cables and then came to the conclusion that he didn't hear any difference in those cables, fine and dandy! I have no problem with that - I don't agree with it, but at least the individual has had some personal experience with cables and has some personal knowledge with which to make and informed judgement.
But to have little or no personal listening experience with high-end interconnects and then to get up on a soap box and tell us that anyone that claims to hear differences in cables is an "audio fool", and then to go on to condemn the whole aftermarket cable industry, then I have a problem with that. I mean no offense Emon, but what is so hard about that premise to understand?! If you have no personal listening experience with audio cables, then don't tell those that do have personal listening experience with audio cables that their opinions are invalid. Don't knock until you've tried it! If you've tried it then go ahead and knock it, but at least try it so that you know what you're knocking.
Now as far as science and psychology and blind ABX testing, that's not what was being debated, and I don't really have anything to say on those subjects. I personally don't put much stock in those types of things, but if that's what you're into and you believe in those things, I say go for it and enjoy. I myself trust my own ears and my decades of audio listening experience to make my value judgements on my audio gear. I will say however that I'm quite honest with myself and I have no expectations what-so-ever when I add a new piece of audio gear or cabling to my system - I always take a wait and see attitude and listen for what develops - if it sounds better, great. If it sounds the same, fine. If it sounds worse, oh well back to the drawing board.
Alright then Emon, it was pleasant chatting with you, and it's refreshing to correspond with a member of the science crowd that doesn't make angry personal attacks just because someone disagrees with them. I welcome any comments you may have on what I just said.

 

[Nixie]

To Edwood:
[size=xx-small]No your guess was not correct.
In any case, an IP ban is a bad idea for three reasons:
1) Bans all users of the LAN at this address
2) Though the ISP in this particular case assigns the same IP for long periods of time, they do shift them from time to time, so it's really a dynamic IP, and thus eventually some random people will be unable to access the site
3) Proxy servers -- initially, I did have an IP ban, so while I was on that particular IP, I just used the university as a proxy (not to post, just to read, because the ban didn't even allow reading by a non-logged in user). I'm not posting this to boast, so don't take it the wrong way. I have no intention of causing trouble again, because I do find some of the discussion here useful. However, I deeply disagree with having been permanently banned, because forever is unreasonabley long. That is how I justify my rejoining.[/size]

I suppose I should quit this thread, because it's yet another repeat of something that has happened here before. KZEE, I did not use the Eichmann plugs, but as it was already explained by myself and others here, that has no bearing on the validity of my argument discrediting their sonic merits. But I'll not post here any more to avoid moderator action, so I can be reached by PM instead.

 

[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz It's all a bit too opinionated here for me so i'll leave you now to continue your personal attacks (at each other leave me out of it) with this:

Hey, don't include me in with that bunch and let's tell it like it is - in spite of the personal attacks directed towards me I've been nothing but civil and polite in my posts, and even though in the end it was a losing battle I made every effort to keep the debate on topic.

 

[Emon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZEE Now as far as science and psychology and blind ABX testing, that's not what was being debated, and I don't really have anything to say on those subjects. I personally don't put much stock in those types of things, but if that's what you're into and you believe in those things, I say go for it and enjoy. I myself trust my own ears and my decades of audio listening experience to make my value judgements on my audio gear.

Um, we weren't debating psychology and ABX testing, we were trying to tell people like you that blind ABX testing is the ONLY way to be sure the effects aren't psychological bias, aka placebo. Your years of experience don't mean a thing next to psychological bias. It's simple: If you believe cables matter, and you invest in high end cables for your system and expect them to improve sound, your mind will think they don't. If you AB a set of cables without doing it blindly, you still know which cable you're listening to, thus psychological bias is still in effect. A good AB switch while blindfolded is the ONLY way to test such things as cables.

You don't need blind ABX for say, amplifiers, because their differences is clear and measurable, but cables which are NOT measurable must be blind ABX'ed. And since audiofools seem to ignore ANY shred of real world science that cables won't make a difference, blind ABX is the only way. But it appears that almost everyone who believes in cables has NEVER done a real blind ABX test. Probably because they fear that it will reveal that there is no difference in their precious cables.

 

[mono]

Blind ABX testing cannot be the sole determiner.

Take the example of amps that can be proven, measured to have difference. Even then a blind ABX may not be able to discriminate. Suppose the threshold for discrimination were a 0.4 % difference (being vague, differnt qualities would apply to different parts but regardless) and any one part substitution made only a 0.2 % change. It is then possible that making 2 or 3 such 0.2% changes could be discriminated.

Point being, a blind ABX of only one variable is not necessarily sufficient nor evidence. Perhaps a blind ABX of ALL the changes one might consider within the context of a 100% "complete" and static setup could be used, but with audiophiles, that commitment, and static setup is hardly guaranteed if even likely.

 

[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon Um, we weren't debating psychology and ABX testing, we were trying to tell people like you that blind ABX testing is the ONLY way to be sure the effects aren't psychological bias, aka placebo. Your years of experience don't mean a thing next to psychological bias. It's simple: If you believe cables matter, and you invest in high end cables for your system and expect them to improve sound, your mind will think they don't. If you AB a set of cables without doing it blindly, you still know which cable you're listening to, thus psychological bias is still in effect. A good AB switch while blindfolded is the ONLY way to test such things as cables. You don't need blind ABX for say, amplifiers, because their differences is clear and measurable, but cables which are NOT measurable must be blind ABX'ed. And since audiofools seem to ignore ANY shred of real world science that cables won't make a difference, blind ABX is the only way. But it appears that almost everyone who believes in cables has NEVER done a real blind ABX test. Probably because they fear that it will reveal that there is no difference in their precious cables.

Ouch... I thought perhaps you were different from the rest of the science bunch Emon, but just like them because I don't agree with your idealogy you've all of a sudden turned a bit nasty towards me in your most recent post. Should I be surprised?
You're the one that brought up psychology and ABX testing in your post, and the topic of this thread is not about those subjects, and thus I don't want to debate those subjects with you in this thread - start a different thread if you wish to discuss those subjects. And like I said in my last post, if you and the boys feel as if you need science and psychology and ABX testing to help you choose cable connectors or cables or audio gear, then by all means you should use that methodology to help you choose your equipment. There might indeed be some value to those methods, but the point ya'll seem to be missing is that up until now I haven't felt the need to go down the science/psychology/ABX road in order to help me choose my audio equipment. When I plug a different componant or cable or set of tubes into my system, to my ears the changes in sound are not subtle and I can quite easily decide if the cable or componant I've changed is an asset or a negative to my system - that's what years of listening experience will do for you. But hey, I'm not afraid... if the oportunity arose for me to do an ABX test I would be extremely happy to do so and let the chips fall where they may. Like I said I'm very honest with myself in regard to audio, and in spite of your assertion to the contrary I have nothing to fear in regard to an ABX type of test. And by the way, I make my own cables, and thus your hypothisis about fooling one's self into thinking a particular cable or connector sounds good because one invested a lot of money in it doesn't apply to me.
So Emon, seeing as you don't believe that you can trust your own ears in regard to a cable's affect on the sound of an audio system, I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing with us the identity of some of the cables that you have personally auditioned that has led you to the conclusion that you need ABXing in order to help you identify what you are or aren't hearing in a cable. And what the heck, to further help us understand your viewpoint why not also include a little bit about the audio system(s) that were used in the auditioning of those cables.

 

[JuJu]

Oh. My. God.
Surely this back and forth has got a little repetative.

At the end of the day KZEE, all the so called science bunch are saying is that ABX testing is a way to eliminate the possibility of placebo effects. Not that you can't tell the difference without it, but simply that it's a surefire way of removing it from the equation.

Sorry, been reading for a few days, and it's got a bit off topic

 

[Voodoochile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nixie In any case, an IP ban is a bad idea for three reasons: 1) Bans all users of the LAN at this address 2) Though the ISP in this particular case assigns the same IP for long periods of time, they do shift them from time to time, so it's really a dynamic IP, and thus eventually some random people will be unable to access the site 3) Proxy servers -- initially, I did have an IP ban, so while I was on that particular IP, I just used the university as a proxy (not to post, just to read, because the ban didn't even allow reading by a non-logged in user). I'm not posting this to boast, so don't take it the wrong way. I have no intention of causing trouble again, because I do find some of the discussion here useful. However, I deeply disagree with having been permanently banned, because forever is unreasonabley long. That is how I justify my rejoining.

I agree.
An IP ban is not a good idea, and you do end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to say. A lot of people will be denied access because of the actions of one individual.

So if these concerns are truly shared by you, then straighten up and fly right, or it will happen, unfortunately.

 

[rickcr42]

I started this thread and I am locking it down as it serves no purpose.No content of any merit but plenty or personal and off topic garbage better suited to the member lounge than it is DIY.