[bellsprout]

I'm looking for suggestions for the best source set up for PC. I have some headphones and amp on the way.
 
I'm going to be using it for both music and gaming, and obv I want to get the best out of my head/amp combo.
 
The main requirement for me is that I need Dolby Headphone or similar upmixing for gaming.
 
I was initially thinking of getting a PCIE sound card (X-fi Titanium HD/Essence STX) and running the line out to the amp, but I have a couple of issues (and I'm not sure how big these issues are). One is that I have reservations about having the DAC inside my PC (from what I hear, noise is bad). The other thing is that the cards I mentioned have a built in headphone amp which I'll not be using. Sure, I can bypass it, and I would if the DACs inside them are good value for money, but all I need the card for is Dolby Headphone - I'd easily buy an external combo if it wasn't for this.
 
My other option is to get a cheap sound card like Xonar DG and take the optical out to a DAC like Fiio D3. Those 2 items combined would be cheaper than X-fi Titanium HD/Essence STX. I won't lose bit transparency through SPDIF right? Would I get better performance out of it? Would you recommend a better DAC?
 
Cheers,
 
Edit1: just found out that the cards have a cover, so noise shouldn't be much of an issue

 

[NamelessPFG]

Well, from what I've heard, Xonar cards don't allow Dolby Headphone output over S/PDIF. I have no idea why this would be the case, seeing as X-Fi cards have zero complaints with allowing CMSS-3D Headphone output over S/PDIF. Maybe other C-Media-based cards don't have that limitation, but I cannot confirm or deny any of that.
 
Unfortunately, this means that the sound card + external DAC approach increases in price, from a $30 Xonar DG to a $60 X-Fi Titanium. (Avoid the XtremeAudio cards, they're all fakes.)
 
I've gone the high-end sound card route myself (X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Titanium HD), but don't have any DACs to compare with aside from a JVC/Victor SU-DH1, which is hardly audiophile-grade. Regardless, I'm quite satisfied with those cards' sound for now, unless some wallet-wringing audiophile DAC spoils my ears at a meet or something. (And when said DACs start at $300 and go way up, I start looking at headphones instead.)

 

[bellsprout]

Quote:

Well, from what I've heard, Xonar cards don't allow Dolby Headphone output over S/PDIF. I have no idea why this would be the case, seeing as X-Fi cards have zero complaints with allowing CMSS-3D Headphone output over S/PDIF. Maybe other C-Media-based cards don't have that limitation, but I cannot confirm or deny any of that.
 
Unfortunately, this means that the sound card + external DAC approach increases in price, from a $30 Xonar DG to a $60 X-Fi Titanium. (Avoid the XtremeAudio cards, they're all fakes.)

Do you mean XtremeMusic and XtremeGamer? How do you mean fakes?
 
And I just want to confirm, if I'm taking digital out straight from the DSP, the quality of the DSP chip has no effect on performance right?

 

[NamelessPFG]

No, I mean "XtremeAudio" very specifically. The XtremeMusic and XtremeGamer both have the EMU20k1 DSP that marks true X-Fi cards. (Well, the PCI ones, anyway. PCI-Express ones have an EMU20k2 DSP.)
 
The XtremeAudio cards are fakes because they lack that DSP and do everything in software, with less features to boot. As such, I don't trust their implementation of the same features done in hardware on the proper X-Fi cards.
 
When you output digital audio over S/PDIF, you're basically bypassing the sound card's analog stage. The only sound colorations that should be present are those intentionally done via DSP effects, like in-game EAX presets and CMSS-3D Headphone. Other than that, the end result of the audio you hear will be determined by the external DAC you've connected.

 

[bellsprout]

Quote:

When you output digital audio over S/PDIF, you're basically bypassing the sound card's analog stage. The only sound colorations that should be present are those intentionally done via DSP effects, like in-game EAX presets and CMSS-3D Headphone. Other than that, the end result of the audio you hear will be determined by the external DAC you've connected.

So am I correct in saying that outside of providing the API for software like games to create DSP effects, the DSP does nothing at all and the signal goes through unfettered?
 
So if you run games using a USB DAC, does it use the onboard DSP and output through USB or does it use a more rudimentary OS level processing?
 
 

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

So am I correct in saying that outside of providing the API for software like games to create DSP effects, the DSP does nothing at all and the signal goes through unfettered?
So if you run games using a USB DAC, does it use the onboard DSP and output through USB or does it use a more rudimentary OS level processing?

Most USB/DACs are going to output analog 2.0 channel and come without any surround sound processing.
 
There are a few external devices that can take the S/PDIF (5.1) digital signal and covert it into Dolby Virtual headphone
The Turtle Beach DSS and Astro Mix-amp are S/PDIF input, to Dolby Digital processing, then to the DAC, then headphone amplifier.
Creative labs has an external device like that (guessing on it's features), but converts the (USB) signal into CMSS-3D, then DAC, then headphone output.
 
 
 

 

[bellsprout]

I guess my question is if there is always a DSP in the signal path? If not, what does the Windows volume control? What mixes all the sounds between your various programs? What does your software call on when it makes an API call to DirectSound? Is this stuff all software, or is the DSP like a hardware accelerator that gets utilised when it's available?
 
Also, you need to install sound card drivers for there to be any sound at all. If you have an external DAC through USB, how does your OS recognise it as your output device?

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

I guess my question is if there is always a DSP in the signal path? If not, what does the Windows volume control? What mixes all the sounds between your various programs? What does your software call on when it makes an API call to DirectSound? Is this stuff all software, or is the DSP like a hardware accelerator that gets utilised when it's available?
Also, you need to install sound card drivers for there to be any sound at all. If you have an external DAC through USB, how does your OS recognise it as your output device?

Motherboards now a days come with a decent low cost audio processing chip built into the motherboard.
Can be called "built in sound card" or "on-board sound card".
Computers today come with enough cpu processing power (like quad cores) that the CPU can perform audio processing (function like a DSP) with software drivers.
As the CPU can do a lot of the audio processes, a dedicated DSP (Digital Signal Processor) is not really needed.
Audio processors can come with or without a DSP.
So only a decent low cost audio processor (like Realtek or VIA) is needed on the motherboard.
If a motherboard has on-board sound, then it also has a built in DAC (Digital to Analog Converter), usually a low cost DAC.
In windows control panel in the "sound" section, you can tell the computer to set output audio to USB.
Who ever manufactures the audio processor also provides the software drivers for that audio processor.
 
 

 

[bellsprout]

Thanks for that. I found that Windows has USB audio support.
 
I'm starting to think that my idea of sound card -> SPDIF -> dac/amp is more trouble than it's worth. I was looking into DACs, and there are so many USB dacs nowadays it seemed as if SPDIF is an inefficient and non value for money option.
 
Unless there's some way of having a USB DAC of my choice and still have surround decoding...?
 
I don't see why there's not a software solution. PowerDVD does it for movies...
 
PC audio, you fail

 

[NamelessPFG]

 
Quote:

So am I correct in saying that outside of providing the API for software like games to create DSP effects, the DSP does nothing at all and the signal goes through unfettered?
 
So if you run games using a USB DAC, does it use the onboard DSP and output through USB or does it use a more rudimentary OS level processing?

Yes, if the DSP's unused, the signal goes through unfettered.
 
As for USB DACs, they are their own sound cards, so to speak, and they're generally devoid of any gaming features whatsoever, not even software-side DSP effects. That's why I suggest you avoid them if you plan on doing any PC gaming at all. It's either a high-end sound card like the X-Fi Titanium HD or a mid-range sound card + S/PDIF DAC.

 

[mephiska]

It's funny that this isn't mentioned, but what about a Home Theater Reciever?  Yes it's big, but as an example, my Sony STR-DG720 automatically mixes a 5.1 channel LPCM signal to a virtual surround for headphones, and the headphone jack on it is powerful enough for my ATH-M50's, though I can't find the specs on the port.   And I'd have to say it does it better than Creative's CMSS-3D.   And of course it can decode Dolby Digital and DTS streams natively, as well as doing full 2 channel 24 bit/192k audio
 
It seems like a lot of the features we're all looking for in small expensive units are readilly available in a home theater receiver.   All you'd need would be to feed it with an HDMI cable from a more recent video card with HDMI output.

 

[bellsprout]

Quote:

It's funny that this isn't mentioned, but what about a Home Theater Reciever?  Yes it's big, but as an example, my Sony STR-DG720 automatically mixes a 5.1 channel LPCM signal to a virtual surround for headphones, and the headphone jack on it is powerful enough for my ATH-M50's, though I can't find the specs on the port.   And I'd have to say it does it better than Creative's CMSS-3D.   And of course it can decode Dolby Digital and DTS streams natively, as well as doing full 2 channel 24 bit/192k audio
 
It seems like a lot of the features we're all looking for in small expensive units are readilly available in a home theater receiver.   All you'd need would be to feed it with an HDMI cable from a more recent video card with HDMI output.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd do that if I was a console gamer, but I don't have the real estate on my desk for that, and I wanted to go down the DIY route.
 
It's surprising how much circuitry SPDIF requires. USB native DACs seem to be a fraction of the price and size 

 

[NamelessPFG]

 
Quote:

It's funny that this isn't mentioned, but what about a Home Theater Reciever?  Yes it's big, but as an example, my Sony STR-DG720 automatically mixes a 5.1 channel LPCM signal to a virtual surround for headphones, and the headphone jack on it is powerful enough for my ATH-M50's, though I can't find the specs on the port.   And I'd have to say it does it better than Creative's CMSS-3D.

Now this I'll have to put to the test for sure.
 
If it's anything like Dolby Headphone, virtual 5.1 won't have a chance against CMSS-3D Headphone when running something that uses DirectSound3D or OpenAL. Unreal Tournament with the Old Unreal OpenAL patch in particular is one of my favorite tests. You can even tell if the sounds are above and below you, something that 5.1 and 7.1 configurations sorely lack.
 
That aside, I actually did consider the A/V receiver route for a moment (mainly for console use), but thought in the end that a giant receiver with speaker amp circuitry I will never use would be horribly impractical compared to something like my SU-DH1 or an Astro Mixamp, and the extra benefit of HDMI input would go unused when I don't even have anything that outputs HDMI.