Soundcards for Macs
Aug 2, 2001 at 4:10 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 26

grrr223

All I want for Christmas is Radio Shack Cat.#910-4380
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I just saw somewhere that Soundblaster is making soundcards for Macs now and that Onkyo has an outboard sound..uh..card. What I'm wondering is, what benefits do these cards offer over what's already coming out of my Macintosh. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a PC needs a soundcard to play anything other than a beep right? Well, ever since 1984, a Mac has been able to play voice and music and all that, so what do these cards offer?

I haven't used the headphone out on my Mac for headphones yet, does anyone have any experience with it, does it sound good? Are there any upgrades or mods for it? Thanks a lot, I know you Mac users do exist out there.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 5:10 PM Post #2 of 26
Though I'm not a Mac user, I believe the Audiophile 2496 soundcard has Mac drivers, and would offer a substantial improvement over the built-in sound. Much better than any SoundBlaster.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 6:26 PM Post #3 of 26
In terms of sound quality, the built-in sound on any Mac is actually very good (as good as any SoundBlaster card for two-channel sound). Macs have always had great built-in sound because 1) lots of audio professionals used them; and 2) not very many third-party solutions were available. There have always been high-end audio add-ons for the Mac, but only recently have we seen consumer-level solutions.

The main things you get from an add-on (consumer) sound card are:

1) Line-in and line-out jacks (some "A/V" Macs have these, but not many recently)

2) Digital out and even digital in on some cards (some electrical S/PDIF, some optical)

3) Support for gaming audio technologies like EAX

4) "Surround" support

5) Hardware handling of audio vs. software.

While sound is partly handled in hardware on the Mac, it is all funneled through the OS' Sound Manager. This is good and bad -- the tight integration of Sound Manager with the rest of the OS and the built-in hardware has been a great thing for both consumers and professionals because the quality is great and it's easy to include sound support in applications. However, it also means that your CPU is doing work that could be done by a third-party sound card. Using a third-party sound card means that sound processing is handled by the hardware on the card, which should offer better overall performance for games and the like. However, all that said, the legacy of Sound Manager means that third-part card makers have had to learn how to pry sound management away from the OS, and there have been a lot of quirks with the new SoundBlaster card. This won't be a problem with OS X once Creative releases drivers, but in OS 9.1 and earlier, SoundBlaster cards were a mix of good and bad for the first few months. They've gotten a lot better, though.

dhwilkin mentioned the Audiophile 2496. That's also Mac-compatible, and offers much better performance than the SoundBlaster cards and the built-in hardware. It's 24 bit/96kHz, offers line in/out, digital in/out, MIDI in/out, includes a built-in digital mixer/router, and provides SCMS control. However, it's a lot more expensive.

In terms of the Onkyo and Yamaha "external sound cards," you get most of the same things, like more in/out jacks (analog & digital) and surround support (on the Yamaha units). You also get external digital/analog conversion, which they claim is better because of less interference from the internal components of your computer -- I don't know if I buy that considering that the data is going across USB. And that's the downside -- all these external devices get audio data from the computer via USB (unless you have a soundcard with optical out... but then you don’t really need the external device). USB audio is nice and easy, but given that USB is processor-dependent and has many "rules" about which devices get bandwidth and how much, at times USB audio can skip or just act buggy (Mac or PC).

So what it comes down to, IMHO, is whether or not you want/need:
1) More in/out connections
2) Special processing like surround, EAX, etc.
3) Higher-end sound (the Audiophile 2496)

Another thing to consider is that certain Mac models don't have a line-in jack, while others don't have mic-in. So these solutions will often provide those things, as well. However, cheaper solutions exist, like those from Griffin: http://www.griffintechnology.com/audio/index.html

Finally, on an interesting note, if you plan on doing high-end audio work on your Mac, Mac OS, upgrade to Mac OS X. A group of researchers at Johns Hopkins just published research on audio latency on various computers, and found that Mac OS X's CoreAudio code provides significantly less latency under load than any other OS/hardware combo. An older PowerMac G4 running OS X even beat out a dual-processor 933 PIII system with a pro audio card and Linux (Windows is actually pretty bad in terms of audio latency). This is also relevant for gaming, where audio latency affects how long it takes you to hear an event -- can't wait for those OS X games to start rolling out
wink.gif
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 6:40 PM Post #4 of 26
WOW, thanks MacDEF, that certainly helped me out A LOT. I can't wait to get the full version of OS X, I still have the public beta which I actually paid for for some reason. I just wish I had a faster computer. All of the eye candy in OS X takes a toll on the processing power of my G3 450.

So, if I get a sound card, I can run the RCA line-level outs to a receiver and it will sound good playing through speakers?

I was wondering if you knew anything about what kind of options are available for gaming sound cards for the Mac? Thanks again.

I was also wondering if there was any possibility of getting surround sound out of my internal DVD player on my G3? Since my parents are holding my real DVD player hostage until my grades imrove.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 7:03 PM Post #5 of 26
Thank you very much MacDEF for that detailed report. I'm very happy to see this thread here. I was just considering whether to get a sound card for my Mac (gigabit G4 450x2), but it seems unnecessary at this point. I'm doing digital audio/midi sequencing with Digital Performer (2.7) and I've found that just having an external mixer is enough right now (Radioshack SSM-60) for allowing me to mix the audio that is processed through the computer with the sound from my midi module. My mac allows for line-level input and output at 16bit 44khz sound, which is all I need right now I suppose. Still, I would like to know more about such cards as the 2496 (is that an Audio Delta card?) that MacDEF mentioned. If there's anyone whose worked with such cards please let me know about your experience and give any recommendations.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 7:18 PM Post #6 of 26
"2) Special processing like surround, "EAX, etc. "
"-- can't wait for those OS X games to start rolling out "

*falls over laughing*

Uh, you all, I would happily use a mac for professional sound applications, and for DVD's, and anything *BUT* games....egad, no decent selection of games is gonna get released for macs...

Shoot, if I wanted a Mac for gaming, I'd get the minimum necessary to play Escape Velocity and Marathon, but, even then, you've got Privateer, Privateer II, Independence War II coming out, Freelancer coming out (instead of EV), and, instead of Marathon, you've got Half Life, System Shock II, Deus Ex....

Yea, uh, don't use a mac for gaming....heheh....there's no real reason to get a Sound Blaster for a mac, because the only thing THAT has is EAX, and EAX is for games, and Macs aren't for games....

heheh....
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 7:42 PM Post #7 of 26
Uh oh Gluegun, now you've done it, better break out your flame-retardent undies! Actually, I agree w/ your position, but that was pretty rough man!
biggrin.gif
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 7:49 PM Post #8 of 26
No one's disagreeing with Gluegun. All he really did was state the obvious. It's true, there currently aren't nearly as many games for a Mac as for PCs, all you have to do is know how to count to figure that one out. But, that's not to say what the future may hold. There's a lot of horsepower in the new G4s, even the latest iMacs and iBooks, it'll happen eventually. Games or not though, I'm sticking with my Mac for better sound and video quality. I just want to be able to watch DVDs on it using my home theater system until I get my real DVD player back.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 8:05 PM Post #9 of 26
Yea, I've got a tad bit of a thing against macs, sorry, I'm biased, but....I saw the demo of OS X at the big mac booth at an educational conference, and all I saw was a bunch of flashy stuff that I didn't really care for......

and, you all, have you ever heard of a Home Theater PC?

Keyword PC? It is REALLY easy to tweak out a cheap PC to get AWESOME home theater quality....

here, check this out...

http://www.avsforum.com/ubbcgi/forum...e=2&LastLogin=

and, the thing about macs and the future and games....it's that mindset that all the mac users have concerning games! That, "well, things are getting better, so I'll wait for games" mindset! That pisses me off! And, you know what? IT NEVER HAPPENS. It's not GONNA HAPPEN. You all are waiting for school to end, and we have been out frolicking in the playground for the last five years!!
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 8:08 PM Post #10 of 26
Not to mention you CAN'T GET 5.1 Sound on a Mac (for now at least).. which sucks... but I don't care, my Mac has no DVD player.

Oh and Gluegun, Deus Ex works quite well on Macs, with OpenAL too, I believe... or EAX, whatever.

Quote:

I saw the demo of OS X at the big mac
booth at an educational conference, and all I saw was a bunch of flashy stuff that I didn't really care for.....


Yeah, Windoze XP isn't exactly the greatest thing either
wink.gif
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 8:36 PM Post #11 of 26
Quote:

Oh and Gluegun, Deus Ex works quite well on Macs, with OpenAL too, I believe... or EAX, whatever


Chych: Could you please explain what you just said, it sounds relevant.


Gluegun: I didn't buy my Mac for games, so I'm not sitting around waiting for anythign to happen, but it wouldn't hurt if there were a lot more of them. OS X is a lot more than just pretty graphics (although it certainly does have a lot of them). The fact that is basically a GUI built on top of an almost complete version of FREE BSD (Unix) which pretty much takes all of the benefits of a Mac (graphics, and sound and whatnot) and combines them with all of the benefits of Unix (networking, security, stability) both of which do their specific duties better than windows.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 8:55 PM Post #12 of 26
Hey, I never said I wanted windows XP, nor did I say I liked it...

Win 98 SE for games, a home dvd system, and the net, macs for creating art and portable dvd's, and Linux for everything else, baby!

Oh, and Linus Torvalds, the guy who created Linux said that OS X basically made every mistake possible with trying to take the unix core.....
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 9:42 PM Post #13 of 26
Quote:

Hey, I never said I wanted windows XP, nor did I say I liked it...

Win 98 SE for games,


Which is quite sad, because MS already has THREE (well almost three) new OS's out after Win98SE. Everyone hates Win ME, Win 2K isn't great for games, and god (aka: US Government) only knows about XP.

Quote:

Oh, and Linus Torvalds, the guy who created Linux said that OS X basically made every mistake possible with trying to take the unix core.....


Since when did he say this? I remember quite clearly that he said himself that he was misunderstood. He said that he didn't like BSD, NOT OS X, and he said this LONG before OS X. He does not like microkernels... that is what he is saying. Not bashing OS X. Besides, Linux isn't growing that fast anyway... A few of my friends who used Linux recently switched to BSD for example.


grr23: Deus Ex is a game that works on Macs. It uses the Unreal engine which was ported to the mac. Unreal Tournament works too.

Deus Ex was the first game on the Mac to support OpenAL, and EAX, or some combination of those two. In other words, you can get 4.1 sound using a soundblaster on a Mac in Deus Ex. I think they are working on putting OpenAL into UT, and a few other games have the support.

I find myself playing less and less games these days, so PC's aren't much of a use to me.. .'. I use a Mac.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 9:55 PM Post #14 of 26
Quote:

So, if I get a sound card, I can run the RCA line-level outs to a receiver and it will sound good playing through speakers?


Yep. But you could also do the same with some of the adapters from the Griffin website that I posted
wink.gif


Quote:

I was wondering if you knew anything about what kind of options are available for gaming sound cards for the Mac? Thanks again.


Right now for gaming it's mainly the Creative card. However, I don't think it's really that big of a deal for gaming -- I've played some EAX games (Deus Ex for one) with EAX and without, and while it's cool, I would only go for the card if you're a real hard-core gamer.

Quote:

I was also wondering if there was any possibility of getting surround sound out of my internal DVD player on my G3? Since my parents are holding my real DVD player hostage until my grades imrove.


The Mac's built-in audio (including the line-out/headphone jacks) supports Dolby Surround and Pro-Logic. If you wanted something like 5.1, you'd need a third-party sound card.
 
Aug 2, 2001 at 9:58 PM Post #15 of 26
Are there 3rd party sound cards for Macs that support Dolby Digital and/or DTS (somehow the chances of the DTS thing are pretty low aren't they?)

What exactly are those devices on the Griffin website? I know they look cool, I like the blue thing, they're just RCA jacks for your mac through the USB port right?
 

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